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I suppose the 10^-17 cm inference from the raw data comes from only looking at the elastic scattering piece of the amplitude so that no real electron-positron pairs are created in that sub-sample?

On May 28, 2011, at 12:43 AM, This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. wrote:
That doesn't sound right.  The dressing virtual e/p pairs do not have a diameter of 10^-11 cm (the Compton wavelength).  If they did, the charge distribution would show up in lepton-lepton scattering experiments.  But they show no charge distribution down to about 10^-17 cm as I recall.  Electrons are very much smaller than the Compton wavelength.

I put in 10^-11cm only because momentum transfers in inelastic scattering > h/10^-11 cm excite real e+-e- pairs out of the virtual plasma cloud. Of course you are correct about the form-factor measurements at the 10^-17  cm scale. Therefore, a very careful look at how Imperial is interpreting their data is in order. I have not done so of course - major job for others. We also need to bear in mind how the Bohm interpretation would apply to the new data. Also remember if my picture of strong short range gravity applies there are severe space distortions so that a large extended Bohm hidden variable sphere of charge will "shrink" in a high energy scattering!
e.g. dR = dr(1 - rs/r)^-1/2
whilst circumference C = 2pir
hence ratio of C/R ---> 0 as r --> rs in a scattering.
From: JACK SARFATTI To: "This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. woodward" Cc:
Subject: Re: Electron is near perfect sphere? Good news for Bohmians from Imperial College, London? (Dr. Quantum)
Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 23:39:30 -0700
From: JACK SARFATTI Date: May 27, 2011 11:39:30 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Electron is near perfect sphere? Good news for Bohmians from Imperial College, London? (Dr. Quantum)
PS the work at Imperial is trying to find an electric dipole moment of the electron viewed as a distortion in the virtual electron-positron-photon plasma ball of order h/mc ~ 10^-11 cm.
On May 27, 2011, at 9:52 AM, JACK SARFATTI wrote:
On May 26, 2011, at 11:34 PM, This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. wrote:
Ah! At last.  Yes, getting semi-classical electrons right is pivotal in exotic physics. . . .  :-)
Yes, however I need to fix my sloppy algebra yesterday done in haste, I think I switch sign conventions mid-way and it's not correct at the "stability" part, but the conclusion is.
Basically, if you use convention  force = - Grad potential
+ e^2/r   has Grad = -e^2/r^2 and the force is +e^2/r^2 repulsive pointing away from r = 0.
forgetting factors of m, c etc for now
If we also use   - / ^2 for the potential
then its Grad is - 2/   so the force ~ + 2/ repulsive for / > 0 i.e. as in de Sitter metric   g00 = 1 - / ^2 with a future event horizon at / ^2 = 1 in this static LNIF rep where we are at r = 0.
this is also the interior of George Chapline's dark star that I independently thought of BTW
attractive for / < 0 as in anti de Sitter metric without an event horizon.
it's the anti de Sitter case that is the Poincare stress strong zero point energy induced gravity glue opposing the self-repulsion of the extended hollow shell of electric charge.
v2 corrected!
PS a simple classical model
Old classical model
The self-energy electrical potential energy of the extended electron of radius a is
Vself = +xe^2/a > 0
x is a model-dependent dimensionless number of order unity
This is obviously unstable.
Add the virtual particle interior to the shell of charge e and rest mass m, this is a dimensionless effective potential per unit test mass energy
We now have a quantum corrected semi-classical effective potential
V(r) = Vself  + VQM = +xe^2/mc^2r - / ^2
(note we can also consider a |/|^1/2 r term with a constant "force" as in the accelerating universe, but it has a vanishing 2nd derivative)
the critical point is
dV/dr = 0
-xe^2/mc^2r^2 - 2/ = 0
i.e. using the classical electron radius
re = e^2/mc^2
-xre /r^2 - 2/ = 0
-xre  - 2/a^3 = 0
2/ = -xre /a^3
a^3 =  -xre /2/
check the stability
d^2V/dr^2 = 2xre/a^3 + 2/ = -4/ + 2/ = -2/
stability requires / < 0, i.e. second derivative must be positive for stability in this function of a single real variable r
we can also put in "spin" as a dimensionless centrifugal potential in the rotating frame ~ (J/mc^2)^2r^-2 etc.

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