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On Nov 6, 2011, at 3:47 PM, This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. wrote:

The processes in these experiments are essentially reversible (the non-reversible component is too small compared to the Maxwell Relations violations (i.e., the discrepancy cannot be accounted for by the irreversibility).

How do you know that?

It seems to me that the Maxwell-Relations are simply the curl-free condition for thermodynamic Cartan 1-form "state functions" i.e. path independence. Go to the web page of Hagen Kleinert. His free publications on-line explain all this in detail.

You don't have any evidence that they are non-reversible.  So you shouldn't claim that.

To the contrary, the essential formal signature of irreversibility is the break down of the exact thermodynamic 1-forms.

Irreversibility is analogous to the vorticity "curl" of fluid flow.

Therefore, if you are seeing a breakdown of the Maxwell-Relations then you are seeing a breakdown of your premise of path independent state functions in the thermodynamic parameter space that is no longer simply connected. You have path dependent anholonomy analogous to curvature in Riemannian geometry.

The Maryland experiment that actually showed an energy discrepancy in an isothermal thermodynamic cycle demonstrates the violation of the Maxwell Relations for reversible processes, because that is the only way you would get the observed energy gain under isothermal conditions.  The observed UMD energy gain is a direct challenge to the 2nd law.

That's not how I would interpret the data. I would say there is some new form of irreversible dissipation completely consistent with the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

Indeed, I would say that the Maxwell relations only describe reversible iso-entropic processes.

Now, I am only speaking from memory here of Cornell classes from a long time ago. Perhaps I am mistaken. I am not expert in this, but that's my intuition off the top of my head.

"Maxwell's relations are a set of equations in thermodynamics which are derivable from the definitions of the thermodynamic potentials. The Maxwell relations are statements of equality among the second derivatives of the thermodynamic potentials. They follow directly from the fact that the order of differentiation of an analytic function of two variables is irrelevant. If ? is a thermodynamic potential and xi and xj are two different natural variables for that potential, then the Maxwell relation for that potential and those variables is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell_relations
where the partial derivatives are taken with all other natural variables held constant. It is seen that for every thermodynamic potential there are  possible Maxwell relations where n is the number of natural variables for that potential."

Jack, be careful not to jump to conclusions.

In a message dated 11/6/2011 6:33:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. writes:

On Nov 6, 2011, at 3:10 PM, This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. wrote:

Jack, are you saying that the Navy experimental data are for non-exact forms and that, therefore, the violation of the Maxwell Relations do not represent a 2nd law violation, just as the negative temperature example you mention?

Yes

Because if you do, what evidence do you have for that?  Don't say because of compliance with the 2nd law.  That's circular, right?

No
Maxwell relations are only for reversible processes like in an ideal Carnot engine.

Maybe I didn't mention to you that the strain and magnetization are state functions.  So the relations are for reversible closed exact differential forms.  So, they do represent violations of the 2nd law, as confirmed, as mentioned by Caratheodory, and by the Maryland energy measurements which showed a greater work output than work input at isothermal temperatures.


I don't follow your logic


In a message dated 11/6/2011 5:25:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. writes:
I don't think it's a violation of the 2nd law either.
The second law has some counter-intuitive consequences especially when quantum effects are added to it.
For example a hot negative spin quantum temperature coupled to a cold positive temperature reversible Carnot engine has no waste heat. Indeed, it's over unity efficient - not violating 2nd law at all.

Second, Maxwell Relations are only for reversible closed exact differential forms in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantin_Carathéodory approach to thermodynamics.
Closed non-exact forms violate the Maxwell-Relations analogous to transverse polarized radiation in electrodynamics - here they correspond to irreversible Arrow of Time processes.

[PDF]
Constantin Carathéodory and the axiomatic thermodynamics
web.ist.utl.pt/ist12219/data/68.pdf
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
by L Pogliani - 2000 - Cited by 6 - Related articles
axiomatic thermodynamics, a creation of Constantin Carathéodory, is thoroughly ... InCarathéodory's treatment thermodynamics is built up as a kind of exten- ...
Constantin Carathéodory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantin_Carathéodory
The physical meaning of the term adiabatic rests on the concepts of heat and temperature. Thus, in Bailyn's survey of thermodynamics, Carathéodory's approach...
Origins - Studies and University Career - Works - The Smyrna years
Caratheodory's Theorem on the Second Law of Thermodynamics
www.jstor.org/stable/2100026
by EC Zachmanoglou - 1973 - Related articles
CARATHEODORY'S THEOREM ON THE SECOND LAW. OF THERMODYNAMICS*. E. C. ZACHMANOGLOUt. Abstract. It is shown in this paper that if in every ...
A simplified version of Carathéodory thermodynamics
adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1978AmJPh..46..136M
by TW Marshall - 1978 - Cited by 3 - Related articles
SAO/NASA ADS Physics Abstract Service.
• Title – A simplified version of Carathéodory thermodynamics
• Affiliation – AA(Department of Mathematics, Manchester University, Manchester ...
• Publication – American Journal of Physics, Volume 46, Issue 2, pp. 136-137 ...
[PDF]
Irreversibility and the second law of thermodynamics
www.phys.uu.nl/igg/jos/publications/dresden.pdf
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
by J Uffink - 2001 - Cited by 4 - Related articles
Carathéodory [4] was the first mathematician to pursue a rigorous formalisation of the second law. Like Gibbs, he construed thermodynamics as a theory of equi- ...
Fundamental Thermodynamics Since Caratheodory
link.aps.org/doi/10.1103/RevModPhys.40.556
by O REDLICH - 1968 - Cited by 13 - Related articles
In the following the contributions of Caratheodory and later authors to thefoundations ofthermodynamics are discussed. We then resume the investigation of the ...


On Nov 6, 2011, at 2:02 PM, francis wrote:


I don’t think this is a violation of the 2nd  law. I think the material naturally organizes into the mechanical portion[Casimir tapestry] of an HUP trap only requiring pressurized hydrogen, carefully controlled heating and an agitator to rectify the chaotic motion of gas into a discount of the disassociation threshold. This sidesteps the mechanical and spatial limitations of a maxwellian demon and becomes instead just an engineering challenge to trigger disassociation at a maximum discount. I think Rossi powder runs away and melts geometry when threshold is even slightly less than energy released upon hydrogen association and his reactor is currently limited by a need to balance a steady and heavy heat extraction against this self destructive tendency of the geometry.  My posit is that using changes in suppression value/Casimir geometry and controlling the bond state of gas atoms near the disassociation threshold you can create an endless chemical reaction/oscillation between h1><h2.  Jan Naudts proposed the hydrino was relativisitic in 2005 and Mill’s recently defined his hydrino as a “fractional Rydberg”  so perhaps I should be saying an endless reaction between h1/x><h2/x  where the motion of h2 relative to changing geometry drives the h2 to disassociate with less energy supplied externally than is released internally thanks to the HUP contribution to motion.

Regards

Fran


From: This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. [mailto:This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.] On Behalf Of JACK SARFATTI
Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2011 2:46 PM
To: Kim Burrafato

Subject: [Starfleet Command] Re: MSNBC-Interesting Coverage of Rossi Cold Fusion Breakthrough


Ask Gerry Pelligrini and Dan Sheehan to look into this. They are questioning the classical Second Law of Thermodynamics in this area. I know that's taboo like signal nonlocality (e.g. see the papers by Adrian Kent at Cavendish Lab, Cambridge).


Pelligrini has Navy Lab data he claims violates the Maxwell Relations http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell_relations


<image001.png>


in terms of Cartan forms, this corresponds to an exact form.


i.e. A = df


dA = d^2f = 0


on the other hand we can have closed dA = 0 non-exact forms A =/= df (non vanishing curl - transverse degrees of freedom) for non-trivial topology (corresponding to irreversibility).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_form


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Élie_Cartan


This is related to gauge invariance in field theory


A gauge transformation defines an equivalence class (gauge orbit)


A ---> A' = A + df


A is a 1-form


f = 0-form


A gauge orbit equivalence class is the set of all f (same boundary conditions) - The set of distinct equivalence classes (orbits) {A'} is formally the quotient set of  closed 1-forms/exact 1-forms


The equivalence classes are non-overlapping.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivalence_class


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotient_space


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotient_group


On Nov 6, 2011, at 11:11 AM, Kim Burrafato wrote:




Combined with the new thermoelectric generator technology coming on line, smaller scale units might be able to heat and power a home, and that would be pretty significant, IMO, particularly in primitive third world regions. Scaling up to nuclear and fossil fuel commercial levels of power generation might not ever be feasible, IF the reaction efficiency isn't greatly improved. Just more reason why it's so important that the theory of what's actually going on be much better understood than it currently is.  If the efficiency of the LEN reaction increased enough, we could see these things powering transportation vehicles, which would really be cool!

Sent from my iPad

On Nov 5, 2011, at 16:26, Adam <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.> wrote:



To effectively replace coal-fired systems the e-Cat heating elements need to operate at 1600 K or so. I don't see that kind of performance yet - and I would like to.


Sent from my iPad


On 04/11/2011, at 8:32 PM, Brian Josephson <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.> wrote:


--On 4 November 2011 21:19:26 +1000 Adam <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.> wrote:


Can't run a steam turbine,


In many of the tests it evaporated the water.  I assume the buyer can tack a turbine on the end if he wants to.  Also as I recall the reactor is at a considerably higher temperature.  Costs are said to compare very favourably with other power sources, I'm afraid I don't have the details to hand but you should be able to find them at pesn.com.  It is particularly useful in applications where heat or hot water is the aim of course.



Brian


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