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    • Jack Sarfatti Addressing some of Jim Woodward's key objections. (some key equation jpgs from original missing here - too lazy now to put them in)

      Let's work some elementary toy models.

      Start with the static LNIF class of detectors


      the proper acceleration is

      g ~ gtt^-1/2dgtt/dr

      1) gtt = 1 - rs/r

      rs/r < 1

      Let the source be at r ---> infinity, therefore gtt(source) ~ 1

      1 + z = (1 - rs/r)^1/2 < 1 BLUE SHIFT

      Both retarded and advanced radiation will seem to work in exactly the same way because the static metric is time symmetric.

      Homework problem 1
      Reverse roles of source and detector to get a red shift.

      2) simple de Sitter space. Note our future universe approaches this metric, our past universe is not at all de Sitter. You cannot model our past particle horizon with a de Sitter metric in our early universe.

      gtt = 1 - r^2/A

      this is observer-dependent.

      The detector INSIDE the horizon is at r = 0 where gtt = 1

      Let, the emitter be near the horizon a distance Lp from it as in Lenny Susskind's stretched membrane model

      First of all now we see we have a red shift because for all r

      1 + z = (1 - r^2/A)^-1/2 > 1

      In particular, for the stretched membrane

      r ~ A^1/2 - Lp

      1 + z = (1 - (A - 2A^1/2Lp + Lp^2)/A)^-1/2

      where Lp^2/A << 1

      1 + z ~ + (Lp/A^1/2)^-1/2 = (A^1/2/Lp)^1/2 = femit/fobsv >> 1

      Suppose further that

      femit = c/Lp

      Therefore,

      fobsv = femit(Lp/A^1/2)^1/2 = (c/Lp)(Lp/A^1/2)^1/2 = c/(LpA^1/2)^1/2

      i.e. c/(Geometric mean of shortest and longest length scales)

      This red shift is for retarded radiation from a past de Sitter horizon and/or

      advanced radiation from a future de Sitter horizon.

      However, we do not have a past de Sitter horizon.

      The Unruh temperature for c/(LpA^1/2)^1/2 via Stefan-Boltzmann law gives precisely the observed dark energy density hc/Lp^2A.

      However, to get w = -1 ZPF at r = 0 and to fit the facts, this must be advanced red shifted Wheeler-Feynman Hawking-Unruh radiation of energy density hc/Lp^4 on our future horizon.

      Jim Woodward's blue shift is a different concurrent effect from

      This will be a relatively small co-moving cosmological blue shift subtraction from the dominant acceleration = gravity (EEP) red shift.

      Note that as is intuitively obvious from Tamara Davis's horizon diagram below

      (A^1/2/Lp)^1/2 ~ (10^29/10^-33)^1/2 ~ 10^31 >> anow/athen

      That is, there is no way a cosmological blue shift of the advanced radiation can over power this huge gravity red shift on the stretched horizon.

      There are several causes of frequency shift, cosmological, peculiar velocity, gravity-acceleration.

      In the case of retarded radiation from us in the accelerating actual universe, the cosmological redshift would be super-imposed on the acceleration blue shift for the static LNIF. The latter will dominate because of gtt^-1/2 --> infinity classically at our future horizon's intersection with the emitter's future light cone that happens at a finite-comoving distance.

      Also if you look at Hawking's paper and compare it with Tamara Davis's diagram, it's obvious that no retarded radiation can ever reach us from our future dark energy horizon. Yet, Hawking says we can see horizon radiation. Therefore, it would follow that the horizon radiation we see is net advanced Wheeler-Feynman radiation.
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We recede from our past particle horizon, but we approach our future event horizon. Therefore, retarded radiation in our past light cone is cosmologically red shifted.

Advanced radiation in our past light cone is cosmologically blue shifted.

However, because the effective available space between us and our future horizon is contracting - even though space as a whole is speeding up in its expansion from the anti-gravity dark energy (virtual bosons w = -1), it follows that

Retarded radiation on our future light cone is blue shifted at our future horizon.

Advanced radiation from our future horizon to us at r = 0 is redshifted because it sees available space expanding backwards in time.

Also when you use the static LNIF representation

g00 = 1 - r^2/A

the gravity red shift of hc/Lp^4 Hawking radiation at r = A^1/2 - Lp is the observed dark energy density of hc/Lp^2A at the r = 0 detector.

This is the best of all possible explanations of the dark energy rooted in the Wheeler-Feynman idea.

OK, Jim here is the answer. We are getting closer to our future horizon in co-moving distance as cosmic time from the inflation -> hot big bang goes on.

Looking at Tamara Davis's causal diamond picture. Uncompensated advanced Wheeler-Feynman black body radiation back from our future horizon to us starts at a(then) ~ 8 billion light years

It reaches us at about

a(now) ~ 14 billion light years



~ 14/8 ~ 7/4 ~ 1.75  > 1

But this co-moving geodesic LIF cosmological redshift is still small compared to the much larger off-geodesic static LNIF gravity redshift of order

1 + z' ~ 10^123 >> 1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redshift



So in that sense, the co-moving distance to the future horizon is contracting for retarded radiation from us to our future horizon - hence blue shift for it. The opposite for back from the future Hawking radiation from our future horizon to us - hence red shift for it.


Begin forwarded message:

From: JACK SARFATTI <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Subject: Re: the redshift or blueshift depends on the total experimental arrang ement.
Date: March 29, 2013 12:28:50 AM PDT
To: "This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it." <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>


On Mar 29, 2013, at 12:11 AM, "This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it." <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.> wrote:

If that is so Jack, what you have is a compelling argument against Hawking radiation, the advanced part anyway, having anything to do with our present.  In the static LNIF rep

gtt = 1 - r^2/A

is TIME SYMMETRIC - WORKS SAME WAY FOR RETARDED & ADVANCED.

and with that metric, which only is in our future not in our past we get

hc/Lp^4 on the future horizon r = A^1/2 - Lp redshifts down to the observed dark energy density hc/Lp^2A

that is simple mathematics from




For the blue shifting of advanced radiation is a consequence ONLY of the fact that the radiation passes from expanded space to more compact space in transit, causing the wavelength of the radiation to decrease.  It has nothing to do with the circumstances of emission.

In fact its just the opposite inside our causal diamond observable patch of the multiverse.

The electron-positron pairs stuck on our relative horizon have enormous proper accelerations c^2/Lp, the horizon is not expanding at all away from us, it's at fixed r = A^1/2 - Lp from us. It has nothing directly to do with expanding space in this conformal diagram. In fact, we are getting closer in co-moving distance to our future horizon whilst receding away from our past horizon.




The way you can salvage your argument is to claim that Hawking radiation (retarded) from our past cosmic horizon is redshifted and so on.

No, that does not work at all. Our past metric is nothing like de Sitter and hc/Lp^2A is way too big in the past because A is smaller!

A approaches a fixed asymptote (middle solid curve below)




On Mar 28, 2013, at 5:32 PM, JACK SARFATTI <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.> wrote:


Begin forwarded message:

From: JACK SARFATTI <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Subject: the redshift or blueshift depends on the total experimental arrangement.
Date: March 28, 2013 5:19:43 PM PDT
To: "This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it." <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Bcc: james Woodward <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>

Jim

Bottom line, is that it looks like there are two competing effects for the advanced waves.

I. Your dynamic co-moving LIF back-from-the-future blue shift

II. My static LNIF advanced red shift.

with II >> I

For the co-moving metric detectors

1 + z = femit/fobs   definition.

1 + z = anow/athen  derivation from the co-moving metric for null geodesics



k = 0

1) retarded spherical waves of positive frequency in an expanding universe

Therefore, then = emit be in our past.

now = obsv

1 +  zret = anow/athen

1 + zret = > 1  retarded co-moving LIF red shift

2) advanced spherical waves of positive frequency in an expanding universe coming back from the future to now from a co-moving emitter to a co-moving receiver

1 + zadv = femit/fobs = anow/athen < 1   advanced co-moving LIF blue shift

Which was what you said.

The situation is different for static LNIF detectors in which the far future metric in de Sitter space for our accelerating dark energy universe is

ds^2 ~ -c^2(1 - r^2/A)dt^2 + (1 - r^2/A)^-1dr^2 + ...

we are at r = 0 and the proper acceleration of the detector at fixed r is

g(r) ~ g00^-1/2dg00/dr

g00 ~ 1 - r^2/A g(future horizon) -> infinity classically in fact it's large and finite c^2/Lp ~ 10^54 cm/sec^2 from the Planck cut off  Now in fact the virtual electron positron pairs are stuck on this horizon relative to us at r = 0. They have plenty of energy from their local thermal bath of Unruh photons to become real pairs relative to us.

They will Hawking radiate advanced waves to us from r = A^-1/2 to us at r = 0 at their local temperature of

T = hg/ckB = hc/LpkB


Now use the time symmetric static LNIF redshift formula starting from r = A^1/2 - Lp emission to r = 0 US reception.

<e674bae4544742b5f8d788e8dd76bfc1.png>

The redshifted result is

T' = hc/(LpA^1/2)^1/2

Using the Stefan Boltzmann law this is an energy density ~ T'^4, i.e. hc/Lp^2A exactly as observed for the dark energy density.

Since we at r = 0 have zero proper acceleration, we see this energy as w = -1 virtual photons of mean frequency c/(LpA^1/2)^1/2 rather than the w = + 1/3 real photons.

So we have TWO effects simultaneously.

Yes, there will I think be a small LIF blue shift correction to the much larger static LNIF advanced redshift.

1 + zadv = femit/fobs = anow/athen < 1   advanced co-moving LIF blue shift

However,  anow/athen is of order unity, i.e. 46/55. You can see we are at about 46 billion light years from Alpha creation in Penrose conformal time. Our future light cone intersects our future event horizon at roughly 55 billion light years. We have to look at the de Sitter metric in conformal time and then do a calculation of the usual anow/athen. I need to check this more carefully of course. Right now I assumed that a(t) is linear in Penrose conformal time, but this may be mistaken.

Jack Sarfatti
Red Shift? Blue Shift? Both?
Jack Sarfatti Not sure of this yet

Begin forwarded message:

From: JACK SARFATTI <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>

Subject: the redshift or blueshift depends on the total experimental arrangement.
Date: March 28, 2013 5:19:43 PM PDT
To: "This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it." <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>
Bcc: james Woodward <This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.>

Jim

Bottom line, is that it looks like there are two competing effects for the advanced waves.

I. Your dynamic co-moving LIF back-from-the-future blue shift

II. My static LNIF advanced red shift.

with II >> I

For the co-moving metric detectors
http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/e/9/0/e90d3b510ad6906ca4a3d96297b4a52e.png
1 + z = femit/fobs definition.

1 + z = anow/athen derivation from the co-moving metric for null geodesics

k = 0

1) retarded spherical waves of positive frequency in an expanding universe

Therefore, then = emit be in our past.

now = obsv

1 + zret = anow/athen

1 + zret = > 1 retarded co-moving LIF red shift

2) advanced spherical waves of positive frequency in an expanding universe coming back from the future to now from a co-moving emitter to a co-moving receiver

1 + zadv = femit/fobs = anow/athen < 1 advanced co-moving LIF blue shift

Which was what you said.

The situation is different for static LNIF detectors in which the far future metric in de Sitter space for our accelerating dark energy universe is

ds^2 ~ -c^2(1 - r^2/A)dt^2 + (1 - r^2/A)^-1dr^2 + ...

we are at r = 0 and the proper acceleration of the detector at fixed r is

g(r) ~ g00^-1/2dg00/dr

g00 ~ 1 - r^2/A

g(future horizon) -> infinity classically

in fact it's large and finite c^2/Lp ~ 10^54 cm/sec^2 from the Planck cut off

Now in fact the virtual electron positron pairs are stuck on this horizon relative to us at r = 0. They have plenty of energy from their local thermal bath of Unruh photons to become real pairs relative to us.

They will Hawking radiate advanced waves to us from r = A^-1/2 to us at r = 0 at their local temperature of

T = hg/ckB = hc/LpkB

Now use the time symmetric static LNIF redshift formula starting from r = A^1/2 - Lp emission to r = 0 US reception.

The redshifted result is

T' = hc/(LpA^1/2)^1/2

Using the Stefan Boltzmann law this is an energy density ~ T'^4, i.e. hc/Lp^2A exactly as observed for the dark energy density.

Since we at r = 0 have zero proper acceleration, we see this energy as w = -1 virtual photons of mean frequency c/(LpA^1/2)^1/2 rather than the w = + 1/3 real photons.

So we have TWO effects simultaneously.

Yes, there will I think be a small LIF blue shift correction to the much larger static LNIF advanced redshift.

1 + zadv = femit/fobsv = anow/athen < 1 advanced co-moving LIF blue shift
http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=hT2Wzkc2PhBr1M&tbnid=35ICO5P_Nhx5SM:&ved=&url=http://stardrive.org/stardrive/index.php/blog/back-from-the-future-cosmological-event-horizon-retrocausal-emergent-gravity-.html&ei=deJUUf-aB4fWiALyk4FY&bvm=bv.44442042,d.cGE&psig=AFQjCNHO9D0_cEisU48JMBoBAY_8NHElkQ&ust=1364603880981307
However, anow/athen is of order unity, i.e. 46/55. You can see we are at about 46 billion light years from Alpha creation in Penrose conformal time. Our future light cone intersects our future event horizon at roughly 55 billion light years. We have to look at the de Sitter metric in conformal time and then do a calculation of the usual anow/athen. I need to check this more carefully of course. Right now I assumed that a(t) is linear in Penrose conformal time, but this may be mistaken.
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