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re: Yakir Aharonov's http://discovermagazine.com/2010/apr/01-back-from-the-future#.UMJp8aWe1ho

On Dec 7, 2012, at 2:55 AM, Paul Werbos <paul.werbos@verizon.net> wrote:

I personally have no basis for objecting to what Ruth says about that specific example
by Aharonov of evidence for retrocausality. I haven't felt any need to look at his specific examples,
because of much stronger and pervasive evidence which I see elsewhere:

Jack is right that I do not see evidence IN PHYSICS for action at distance.

JS: Let's be clear. If by action at a distance you mean direct Einstein's "spooky telepathic" spacelike influence as opposed to Cramer's used of Costa de Beauregard's "Feynman zig zag"


I see no way to tell the difference. They seem to be equivalent. That is, the entanglement effect is completely independent of the space-time interval between strong Von-Neumann measurements on the complex entangled system, spacelike, timelike, light like doesn't matter. The effect is BEYOND SPACE-TIME. It's pre-metrical, topological.

The issue is whether we can control the effect, decrypt it before it is sent, but only if it will be sent in a Novikov consistent Feynman history loop in time.
Brain presponse and remote viewing are evidence of that.
in the sense of http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0203049

PW: Indeed, the ability to revive the use of local realistic models in physics, just like things Einstein would have liked,
is one of the benefits of facing up to retrocausality.

JS: We have a difference here. When Einstein meant local realism he did not include retrocausality only the usual retarded past to present to future causality.

Einstein local realism + Aharonov's back-from-the-future retro-causal Destiny quantum vector = usual notion of spacelike nonlocality as seen in violation of Bell's locality inequality.

PW: People have advised me to wait a few months before
saying too much about recent progress on those lines, reminding me of how my big mouth
got me into a mess when I developed backpropagation

JS: Do you have retro-causation in your idea of backpropagation?

PW-- but I have posted a few things in obscure places like vixra and a journal
in Russia, which foreshadow some important developments. It is relatively easy to talk about
the possibility of going back to local realism in abstract or hypothetical terms; it is far more difficult to find Lagrangians which actually work,
in coping with the huge and tangled mass of distilled empirical evidence and adressing phenomena not yet addressed by today's standard model.

JS: You may be interested in this paper suggesting a non-retarded non-algorithmic Lagrangian approach.

PW: Jack also cites work by Bierman, Libet and others as a kind of evidence for action at a distance.

JS: Only in the general pre-metrical BEYOND SPACE-TIME sense above. In the presponse case the effect is retro-causal along the timelike world line connecting future stimulus to past presponse neural event in the history of the subject.

PW: In that realm of parapsychology
or psychic powers, I personally also see a mixed bag -- some things which I view as extremely
persuasive to me, others less so. But at the end of the day, if SOME of the evidence for parapsychology or psychic powers is strongly persuasive to some of us (like me and Jack), AND IF that evidence does seem to require something like action at a distance
well beyond what retrocausality alone can explain, what can we do? How can we reconcile the physics
and the psychology?

JS: This is a RED HERRING a FALSE DICHOTOMY as I explained above. To repeat, the general idea is that the enchanted web of actual strong Von Neumann projection irreversible measurements on different parts of an extended entangled system are nodes in a graph. The spacetime intervals between the nodes is irrelevant. Think Erlanger program. Quantum geometry is pre-metrical entirely. The real issue is signal nonlocality violating the narrow limit of orthodox quantum theory.

PW: One approach is to try to look for action at a distance in physics. But I haven't seen the evidence there. Maybe we will someday, maybe not.
I do have some half-formed ideas about how certain new chips MIGHT be used to do new experiments,
but first we would need the chips themselves -- or, if they already exist, to get them hooked up to the
right nanosecond-accuracy testing needed as a prelude to building more interesting systems.
Sometimes getting people to talk to each other seems harder than figuring out the physics.

Personally, I would explain the APPEARANCE of action at a distance as an emergent phenomenon rather than part of the
laws of physics. We all know that simple-looking nonlinear dynamical systems can give rise to extremely complex emergent
phenomena, such as life itself. Thus I tend to view psychic powers as more of a biological or even neural network kind of phenomenon
than as a physics phenomenon. The physics enables the evolution of the biology, on the larger stage of the universe or cosmos, but retrocausality
is the only physics based phenomenon we (or rather, some of us) see clearly and directly in the parapsychology evidence.
Thus I tend to believe that the neural network approach allows one to make much richer contact with the empirical data from
psychology than any direct reductionist approach. ON those lines, I hope you all will forgive me if I mention a brief
pointer to to how I would put this together, on the human psychology side:


Best of luck,


It will take me time to carefully read & ponder all this. Meantime I hope others do as well. Of course, signal nonlocality in Valentini's sense settles the issue of whether retrocausation is not only real, but is controllable of practical use as suggested also in the presponse brain-mind experiments and the CIA SRI RV experiments. That goes beyond the domain of validity that even Yakir has considered. I agree with Yakir's logic below that I personally find impeccable. The new physics of course is in the Popper falsification of his last sentence: Causal loops are avoided by this anticipation remaining encrypted until the final outcomes enable to decipher it.
Now this is the point that many still don't get. With Tony Valentini's "signal nonlocality" there are Novikov causal loops in which Bob's future strong measurement final outcome is decrypted by Alice BEFORE Bob even knows what choice he will make.

This is proved by CIA/DIA experiments (assuming of course they are correct)

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On Dec 5, 2012, at 1:47 PM, Ruth Elinor Kastner <rkastner@umd.edu> wrote:

This recent preprint from Aharonov et al claim that the "only reasonable" way to understand these is by invoking retrocausality and make the unsupported claim that the weak outcomes 'anticipate the experimenter's future choice'. This is the paper I analyze in the previous drafts I attached:

"Can a Future Choice Affect a Past Measurement's Outcome?
Yakir Aharonov, Eliahu Cohen, Doron Grossman, Avshalom C. Elitzur
(Submitted on 27 Jun 2012 (v1), last revised 18 Sep 2012 (this version, v5))

An EPR experiment is studied where each particle undergoes a few weak measurements of different spin-orientations, whose outcomes are individually recorded. Then the particle undergoes a strong measurement along a spin orientation freely chosen at the last moment. Bell-inequality violation is expected between the two strong measurements. At the same time, agreement is expected between all same-spin measurements, whether weak or strong. A contradiction thereby ensues: i) A weak measurement cannot determine the outcome of a successive strong one; ii) Bell's theorem forbids spin values to exist prior to the final choice of the spin-orientation to be measured; and iii) Indeed no disentanglement is inflicted by the weak measurements; yet iv) The weak measurements' outcome agrees with those of the strong ones. The only reasonable resolution seems to be that of the Two-State-Vector Formalism, namely that the weak measurement's outcomes anticipate the experimenter's future choice, even before the experimenter themselves knows what their choice is going to be. Causal loops are avoided by this anticipation remaining encrypted until the final outcomes enable to decipher it. "  > end quote from Aharonov etal

From: JACK SARFATTI [sarfatti@pacbell.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 4:28 PM
To: Ruth Elinor Kastner

Subject: Re: [ExoticPhysics] Paul Werbos on back from the future physics (Wheeler-Feynman-Hoyle-Narlikar-Aharonov-Cramer …)

Yakir does say that his results can be understood in the orthodox way. However, different ways of looking at the problem are asymmetric in terms of extending the orthodox theory to a larger domain of validity as special relativity was extended to general relativity where special relativity is only true locally but not globally in the presence of real (tensor curvature) gravity fields.

Similarly, Yakir's "Wheeler-Feynman" approach, Cramer's approach, Bohm's approach all lend themselves naturally to entanglement signal nonlocality violating orthodox quantum theory extensions of the the latter in natural ways.

This is in contrast to, for example, Asher Peres's interpretation in which such an extension is not even thinkable.

On Dec 5, 2012, at 1:11 PM, Ruth Elinor Kastnerwrote:

Attached is my quantitative analysis of allegedly wondrous experiments allegedly requiring retrocausation and/or claiming to show loophole in Bell's thm.  My analysis (attached) shows that no retrocausation is necessary and there is no such loophole in Bell's thm. The experiments have no new physics and are all straightforwardly accounted for by standard QM.

From: JACK SARFATTI [adastra1@me.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 3:37 PM
To: Jack Sarfatti's Workshop in Advanced Physics

Subject: Re: [ExoticPhysics] Paul Werbos on back from the future physics (Wheeler-Feynman-Hoyle-Narlikar-Aharonov-Cramer …)

good question Z

I think Ruth is wrong, but it will take me time to properly refute her argument

On Dec 5, 2012, at 12:29 PM, Paul Zielinski wrote:

Then what do they show?

On 12/5/2012 12:27 PM, Ruth Elinor Kastner wrote:

They show nothing of the sort. This is all hype.

From: JACK SARFATTI [sarfatti@pacbell.net<mailto:sarfatti@pacbell.net>]
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 3:25 PM
To: Exotic Physics
Subject: Paul Werbos on back from the future physics (Wheeler-Feynman-Hoyle-Narlikar-Aharonov-Cramer …)

*   Home<http://discovermagazine.com/><http://discovermagazine.com/>
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*   April<http://discovermagazine.com/2010/apr><http://discovermagazine.com/2010/apr>
*   »
*   Back From the Future

Back From the Future
A series of quantum experiments shows that measurements performed in the future can influence the present. Does that mean the universe has a destiny—and the laws of physics pull us inexorably toward our prewritten fate?

On Dec 5, 2012, at 5:17 AM, Paul Werbos <paul.werbos@verizon.net<mailto:paul.werbos@verizon.net><mailto:paul.werbos@verizon.net><mailto:paul.werbos@verizon.net>> wrote:

The idea that causality might go backwards in time is certainly older than any of us.

Agreed. But that should not be confounded with the much stronger condition spelled out in Antony Valentini's paper here, which is what I am talking about.
Subquantum Information and Computation
Antony Valentini<http://arxiv.org/find/quant-ph/1/au:+Valentini_A/0/1/0/all/0/1><http://arxiv.org/find/quant-ph/1/au:+Valentini_A/0/1/0/all/0/1>
(Submitted on 11 Mar 2002 (v1<http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0203049v1><http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0203049v1>), last revised 12 Apr 2002 (this version, v2))
It is argued that immense physical resources - for nonlocal communication, espionage, and exponentially-fast computation - are hidden from us by quantum noise, and that this noise is not fundamental but merely a property of an equilibrium state in which the universe happens to be at the present time. It is suggested that 'non-quantum' or nonequilibrium matter might exist today in the form of relic particles from the early universe. We describe how such matter could be detected and put to practical use. Nonequilibrium matter could be used to send instantaneous signals, to violate the uncertainty principle, to distinguish non-orthogonal quantum states without disturbing them, to eavesdrop on quantum key distribution, and to outpace quantum computation (solving NP-complete problems in polynomial time).
Comments:       10 pages, Latex, no figures. To appear in 'Proceedings of the Second Winter Institute on Foundations of Quantum Theory and Quantum Optics: Quantum Information Processing', ed. R. Ghosh (Indian Academy of Science, Bangalore, 2002). Second version: shortened at editor's request; extra material on outpacing quantum computation (solving NP-complete problems in polynomial time)
Subjects:       Quantum Physics (quant-ph)
Journal reference:      Pramana - J. Phys. 59 (2002) 269-277
DOI:    10.1007/s12043-002-0117-1<http://arxiv.org/ct?url=http://dx.doi.org/10%2E1007/s12043-002-0117-1&v=35ec265c><http://arxiv.org/ct?url=http://dx.doi.org/10%2E1007/s12043-002-0117-1&v=35ec265c>
Report number:  Imperial/TP/1-02/15
Cite as:        arXiv:quant-ph/0203049<http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0203049><http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0203049>

PW: Certainly we all know about HG Wells time machine, and about the concept of prophecy
of the future.

JS Agreed.

PW: And certainly Einstein himself was quite blunt about the claim that time is just
another dimension, and should not be treated otherwise. There is a sense in which
one might call special relativity itself a species of backwards-time physics (BTP).
Indeed, by playing with the definition of BTP (as many played with the definition of
BP and even tried to play with BTT), one could justify all kinds of statements about the history.


PW: For the backwards time interpretation of quantum mechanics, I had a special advantage.
I went to graduate school with one of the authors of the CHSH theorem and one
of the first two CHSH experiment, which is popularly called "Bell's Theorem."
(Though JS Bell himself uses the proper term CHSH.) It would be hard for anyone to
publish a paper explaining the paradoxical nature of quantum mechanics, and the CHSH
experiment, before the experiment came out and the theorem was widely disseminated.
Still, Von Neumann did look into these issues, and he did conclude that our conventional assumptions about "causality"
seem to be the basic problem in carrying through Einstein's program. (I cite the source in the IJTP paper.)

But that is just a starting point. If people get too deep into personality issues, the logical starting point will be lost,
and likewise all that it could lead to.


PW: The IJTP paper tries to get us back to empirical reality in this kind of issue. For example, the discussion
of Bell's Theorem experiments with imperfect polarizers could itself get somebody a Nobel Prize, if properly followed up on
by someone motivated to aim for a Nobel Prize. (I have too many other goals on my plate to
give that one any serious attention.) Most people try to forget the inconvenient fact that the first Bell's Theorem
experiment contradicted BOTH "local causal hidden variable theory" AND quantum mechanics in its present form.
The simple algebra in the IJTP paper basically offers a way to explain that, and nail it down.

JS: I need to study your argument as well as Ruth Kastner's rejection of Yakir Aharonov's back from the future History-Destiny double state vector interpretation.

PW: As for Aharonov... well, I do hope he can help with the cultural revolution we need to make.
Help and allies are badly needed, to get this beyond what I put into my own notebooks, and to get the experiments we need
as well. I think he has grown a lot in recent years, and he has done a great thing to try to move the mai nstream
out of its lethargy by epsilon... but...

.. In 2000, when I visited Brian Josephson in Cambridge, I found a very recent book from Cambridge University Press edited by Savitt,
with the current establishment work on "the arrow of time." Of the papers there, only the one by Huw Price really fit
the modern vision of BTP as **I** define it. Aharonov's paper had WORDS in the spirit of BTP, but the
mathematical formalism he presented simply is not consistent with BTP. More recently, he has sometimes sounded closer to
what I previously wrote, in his discussion of "preselection" -- but even so he often insists that it is just a matter of interpretation, that it's still the same theory of physics. How can we get different predictions and different technology if it's just a matter of interpretation and not a different theory?

JS: That's what Valentini's papers deal with and extension of quantum theory to include signal nonlocality "passion at a distance" violating orthodox quantum theory that is simply a limiting case of the more general "post-quantum theory". Weinberg and Stapp already published such models. Weinberg's is incomplete neglecting spontaneous symmetry breakdown in ground states of complex systems. Also my idea

http://www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~mdt26/pilot_waves.html - two slides in Lecture 8 on my back-action theory that implies Valentini's signal nonlocality


And Brian Josephsons (& Pallikari) "Biological Utilization of Nonlocality"


PW: I had a good personal relation for years with Karl Pribram, until other people in our lives and the general pressure of time pulled us in different directions. I still remember one time when he looked very perplexed and said: "<http://www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~bdj10/================PW:IhadagoodpersonalrelationforyearswithKarlPribram,untilotherpeopleinourlivesandthegeneralpressureoftimepulledusindifferentdirections.Istillrememberonetimewhenhelookedveryperplexedandsaid:>Paul, I have already been marginalized to a huge extent
by being too far out in left field for most of the establishment to accept. But you are way the hell to the left of ME... and also way to
the right at the same time. Neither group, the left nor the right, will be able to accept that." So... with technology and the mind,
I see real-world possibilities rather beyond what those other folks you cite do. But with what we know in physics today..
I see more promise for now in trying to simplify and unify what physics knows
than in exercising creative imagination in a way which is not so grounded in experience and experiment (as the superstring people do,
making the medieval epicycle guys look mild by comparison, mor elike angels on the head of a pin).

Concretely, what I see right now is the possibility that Einstein's original goals are still doable. In the IJTP paper, I spoke
of a many world BTP AND an Einsteinian BTP. By now, I see more concretely how to fulfill that theoretical goal,
with a few specific Lagrangians for a classical PDE, which generates quantum stuff as an emergent statistical outcome,
so long as one does the statistics correctly WITHOUT imposing the exogenous assumption of classical time-forward statistics.
Yea even a neoclassical version of the standard model of physics, without a need for renormalization...

But it's a long story, and today I must move on to read 180 new proposals to NSF...
That time of year...

Best of luck,



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