Text Size

Stardrive

Tag » Stephen Hawking
  1. Not all three statements are consistent it is claimed.
  2. 1) Hawking radiation is in a pure state.
  3. 2) The information carried by the radiation is emitted from the region near the horizon, with low energy effective field theory valid beyond some microscopic distance from the horizon.
  4. 3) The infalling observer encounters nothing unusual at the horizon.
 
 
Well 1) cannot be true since if Hawking radiation is black body it is not in a pure state it is a mixed state with a reduced density matrix that is not an idempotent projection operator.
 
 
So what is all the fuss about? ;-)
 
Throw away 1) and keep 2) and 3)?
 
Furthermore, there is no reason to go hog wild that the universe obeys unitarity at all levels of organization. Why should probability be conserved in the first place? Life does not seem to conserve probabilities. When Feynman gave an early lecture on his Lagrangian formulation of quantum theory Dirac was there with Einstein and Dirac asked Feynman if his theory was “unitary.” Feynman said he had no idea of what Dirac even meant at that time. Valentini has an extended quantum theory that is definitely not unitary for example. Feynman also asked why observables have to be Hermitian operators. Hermitian operators generate unitary transformations.
 
 
Unitarity is in Hilbert qubit pilot wave space what orthogonality is in the spacetime continuum. There is nothing sacred and absolute in either. There is no compelling reason to say that inner products of quantum states are invariant under time evolution. It works in a limited range of experiments - scattering experiments - very primitive smashing of things together - brute force not very subtle.
 
 
The S-MATRIX is a crude tool that has been elevated into The Golden Calf by the Priests of Orthodox Physics.
 
 
<imgres.jpg>
 

 

On Jun 30, 2014, at 11:45 AM, Paul Zielinski <iksnileiz@gmail.com> wrote:

"In any case, the SEP is really just a conjecture. Also there is something fundamentally wrong with a theory in which the existence of radiation is frame dependent. Surely it should at least be possible to settle this question empirically?"

No, look at the Unruh effect.
Virtual photons in inertial frames are real photons in coincident non-inertial frames. This is the origin of the firewall debate on black holes.There is a creative tension between equivalence principle and charges emitting photons
If a charge sits at surface of Earth it has a constant proper acceleration in a static LNIF. Feynman would say no problem - constant acceleration does not cause real photon emission - to who? others ask.
 
If you accumulate a lot of unbalanced electric charge and just let it sit on a lab table do you expect it to radiate real photons? Where is the energy coming from?
 
In Wheeler-Feynman-Cramer - the emission of real photons is a transaction between emitter and absorber with advanced confirmation. So now there are four cases emitter rest frame in LIF or LNIF, absorber rest frame in LIF' or LNIF'
 
We do not expect any real photon emission in the geodesic LIF <—> geodesic LIF' case. What about the other three?
 
 

 

On 6/29/2014 9:39 PM, Jack Sarfatti wrote:
Still up in the air

Sent from my iPad

On Jun 29, 2014, at 7:00 PM, Paul Zielinski <iksnileiz@gmail.com> wrote:

Here is a more in depth discussion of the problem by R. Scalise, which raises doubts about
Feynman's answer based on more recent work:

http://www.physics.smu.edu/scalise/P7312fa12/ChoiceCutsCh52.pdf

On 6/29/2014 6:47 PM, Paul Zielinski wrote:
Informative discussion on this topic by Kevin Brown available here:

http://www.mathpages.com/home/kmath528/kmath528.htm

On 6/29/2014 6:37 PM, Jack Sarfatti wrote:
1) an electric charge on a time like geodesic should not radiate transverse photons.

2) Feynman showed that a charge in uniform acceleration does not radiate.

This is obvious since radiation reaction depends on the jerk covariant derivative of

D^2V^u/ds^2

Note that this is complicated in LNIFs.

Sent from my iPad

 

 

We compute the total power P by multiplying the far-away redshifted energy density by the area A of the horizon. This may be a conceptual error in Hawking's original estimate of black hole evaporation time. The clock hovering at L distant from A is running much faster than our far away clock where we are. A is an infinite redshift surface, but including L makes it finite but large. Also it takes infinite far away clock time for objects to reach A etc.
 
Therefore, we can argue that the Wikipedia calculation is wrong. That is, for Hawking's surface gravity case, replace
 
P ~ A (energy density) ~ A^-1
 
by
 
P ~ g00(L)^1/2A (energy density)
~  [1 + z(L)]^-1A (energy density)
~ (L/A^1/2)^1/2A^-1
 
 
Therefore, even in Hawking's case, 
 
P ~ dM/dt ~ L^1/2/A^5/4
 
Therefore,
 
dM/dt ~ L^1/2/M^5/2
 
tHawking ~ M^7/2 /L^1/2  not M^3
 
remember there is no actual evidence for M^3.
 
Next our new case
 
Instead of
 
P' ~ AT'^4 ~ A/L^2A ~ L^-2 ~ mp^-2
 
dM'/dt ~ mp^-2
 
P' ~ [1 + z(L)]^-1AT'^4
~ (L^1/2/A^1/4)A/L^2A
~ 1/L^1/2A^1/4
 
dM'/dt ~ 1/L^1/2M^1/2
 
t' ~ L^1/2M^3/2

to be continued

Putting in some numbers
From Wiki
 
Stefan–Boltzmann–Schwarzschild–Hawking black hole radiation power law derivation:
For a solar mass black hole
Putting in the gravity time dilation factor L^1/2/A^1/4
 
L ~ 10^-35 meters
 
L^1/2 ~ (1/3) 10^-17
 
A^1/2 ~ 10^3 meters

A^1/4 ~ 3 x10
 
L^1/2/A^1/4 ~ 10^-17/3x3s10 ~ 10^-19
 
so
 
P ~ 10^-28 x 10^-19 ~ 10^-47 watts
 
Next for our gravity radiation
 
 
P' ~ [1 + z(L)]^-1AT'^4 ~ (L^1/2/A^1/4)A/L^2A ~ 1/L^1/2A^1/4

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan–Boltzmann_constant
 
P' ~ 6 x 10^-8T'^4
 
Our T' = (A^1/2/L)^1/2T ~  10^23(M/mp)^1/2(1/M) ~ 10^23/(mpM)^1/2  deg K
 
Therefore, energy density is
 
6 x 10^-8 x 10^92/mp^2M^2
 
Multiply by the area A and the gravity time dilation factor L^1/2/A^1/4
 
So that's effective area    L^1/2A^3/4
 
Total power is then
 
P' ~ 10^85 L^1/2A^3/4/mp^2M^2  Watts
 
for a solar mass scale black hole that's roughly
 
P' ~ 10^85 (1/3) 10^-17 (10^6^)3/4 10^10 x 10^-60  Watts
 
P' ~ 10^23 Watts - very roughly in gravity wave black body radiation ~ 
 
peak wavelength ~ 10^-16 meters ~ 10^24 Hz
 
to be continued - next order of biz evaporation lifetime

The 10^23 Watts is only the initial output - that increases as the black hole evaporates

Putting in some numbers
From Wiki
 
 
 
In our new theory this is I think
 
t'ev = c^2(mpM)^3/2 /3Kev 
 
(mpM)^3/2 = xM^3
 
x = (mpM)^3/2/M = (mp/M)^3/2
 
t'ev = (mp/M)^3/2 tev ~  (mp/M)^3/2 10^-16[M/kg]^3
 
For a ~ solar mass black hole 
 
(10^ -35)3/2 10^67 years ~ 10^-52 10^67 ~ 10^15 years

 
 
On Dec 5, 2013, at 7:55 PM, JACK SARFATTI <jacksarfatti@icloud.com> wrote:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawking_radiation
 
From the beginning:
 
First Hawking
 
L = Schwarzschild radial coordinate distance to horizon classical 2D surface g00 = 0.
 
Newton's surface gravity ~ A^-1/2
 
A = area-entropy of g00 = 0
 
What they do in Wikipedia above comes down to this
 
Redshifted Unruh temperature a long distant from the black hole is
 
THawking ~ A^-1/2
 
Stefan-Boltzmann law
 
energy density ~ THawking^4 ~ A^-2
 
Total redshifted power
 
P ~ A (energy density) ~ A^-1
 
A ~ M^2
 
P ~ dM/dt
 
tlifetime ~ M^3
 
OK now my new prediction following the same argument as above
 
The redshifted thickness gravity Unruh temperature is
 
T' ~ (LA^1/2)^-1/2
 
If we take
 
Lp ~ mp = Planck mass
 
T' ~ (mpM)^-1/2
 
P' ~ AT'^4 ~ A/L^2A ~ L^-2 ~ mp^-2
 
dM'/dt ~ mp^-2
 
t' ~ mp^2M << t ~ M^3

On Dec 5, 2013, at 8:00 PM, JACK SARFATTI <jacksarfatti@icloud.com> wrote:


 
From the beginning:
 
First Hawking
 
L = Schwarzschild radial coordinate distance to horizon classical 2D surface g00 = 0.
 
Newton's surface gravity ~ A^-1/2
 
A = area-entropy of g00 = 0
 
What they do in Wikipedia above comes down to this
 
Redshifted Unruh temperature a long distant from the black hole is
 
THawking ~ A^-1/2
 
Stefan-Boltzmann law
 
energy density ~ THawking^4 ~ A^-2
 
Total redshifted power
 
P ~ A (energy density) ~ A^-1
 
A ~ M^2
 
P ~ dM/dt
 
tlifetime ~ M^3
 
OK now my new prediction following the same argument as above
 
The redshifted thickness gravity Unruh temperature is
 
T' ~ (LA^1/2)^-1/2
 
If we take
 
Lp ~ mp = Planck mass
 
T' ~ (mpM)^-1/2
 
P' ~ AT'^4 ~ A/L^2A ~ L^-2 ~ mp^-2
 
dM'/dt ~ mp^-2
 
t' ~ mp^2M << t ~ M^3
 

From my Stargate book (still not finished)

1974: Hawking shows that all black-holes radiate black body radiation[i] whose peak wavelength lmax is roughly the square root of the area-entropy of the black-hole’s horizon, i.e., lmax ~ A1/2 where the entropy S ~ kBA/4.

Kip Thorne’s book “Black Holes and Time Warps” (1994) gives the best popular explanation of Hawking’s horizon evaporation radiation and the history of its discovery including the role of Zeldovitch in the Soviet Union some forty years ago. Zeldovitch arguing by analogy to the electrodynamics of a rotating neutral conducting sphere said that the virtual photons of the zero point vacuum fluctuations would “tickle” the metal like spontaneous emission of light triggered by virtual photons interacting with real electrons in excited atoms, the rotational energy of the sphere then converting to real photons. Hawking was with Zeldovitch at Les Houches in France. Some time later Hawking, using Bekenstein’s thermodynamics of horizons where the temperature is proportional to the inverse square root of the horizon’s area-entropy A. That is Tcold ~ A-1/2. I realized in 2013 that this is only half the story, and that there is a second higher temperature Thot ~ (LA1/2)-1/2, which is the proper quantum thickness of the horizon. For example, when L = Planck length we have gravity wave Hawking horizon thickness radiation, when L = Compton wavelength we have electromagnetic radiation from properly accelerating real electrons and positrons. There will also be a sharp gamma ray signal from electron-positron annihilations outside the black-hole horizon. Indeed, the horizon, in the stretched membrane description, is a heat engine of high maximal efficiency ~ 1 – (L/A1/2)1/2. Returning to Kip Thorne’s narrative, Zeldovich was convinced the mostly gravity wave rotation radiation would stop when the black-hole stopped rotating from Kerr metric to Schwarzschild metric. However, Hawking did rough calculations suggesting that even stationary black-holes would evaporate mostly by gravity wave emission, although all kinds of thermal emission of every type would also occur. Kip Thorne wrote:

There are several different ways to picture black-hole evaporation … However, all the ways acknowledge vacuum fluctuations as the ultimate source of the outflowing radiation … The waves fluctuate randomly and unpredictably, with positive energy momentarily here, negative energy momentarily there, and zero energy on average. The particle aspect is embodied in the concept of virtual particles, that is particles that flash into existence in pairs (two particles at a time) …

 

And they are quantum entangled as in the EPR effect.[ii]

 

… living momentarily on fluctuational energy borrowed from neighboring regions of space, and that then annihilate and disappear, giving their energy back to the neighboring regions. For electromagnetic vacuum fluctuations, the virtual particles are virtual photons; for gravitational vacuum fluctuations, they are virtual gravitons.  … a virtual electron and a virtual positron are likely to flash into existence as an [entangled] pair … the photon is its own antiparticle, so virtual photons flash in and out of existence in [entangled] pairs, and similarly for gravitons. …

 

The way the phenomenon appears depends on the local frame of the observer. First for the LIF non-rotating timelike geodesic observer in weightless free float:

A black-hole’s tidal gravity pulls an [entangled] pair of virtual photons apart, thereby feeding energy into them … The virtual photons can separate from each other easily, so long as they both remain in a region where the electromagnetic field has momentarily acquired positive energy … the region’s size will always be about the same as the wavelength of the fluctuating electromagnetic field … If the wavelength happens to be about the same as the hole’s circumference [~ A1/2], then the virtual photons can easily separate from eac

Hawking's absolute blackhole horizon is teleological very much like Dirac's radiation reaction one needs back from the future influence. This also reminds us of John Cramer's transaction, Aharonov's destiny wave. Wheeler Feynman and all that. Aristotle's final cause. The Absolute horizon feels the future.
See Kip Thorne's Ch 12 black holes and time warps

Sent from my iPad using Siri
Like ·  · Share
  • Jack Sarfatti Stargate
    Making Star Trek Real
    Jack Sarfatti
    Internet Science Education Project
    Foreword

    Sing Heav'nly Muse, that on the secret topOf Oreb, or of Sinai, didst inspireThat Shepherd, who first taught the chosen Seed,In the Beginning how the Heav'ns and EarthRose out of Chaos: Or if Sion Hill [ 10 ]Delight thee more, and Siloa's Brook that flow'dFast by the Oracle of God; I thenceInvoke thy aid to my adventrous Song,That with no middle flight intends to soarAbove th' Aonian Mount, while it pursues [ 15 ]Things unattempted yet in Prose or Rhime.And chiefly Thou O Spirit, that dost preferBefore all Temples th' upright heart and pure,Instruct me, for Thou know'st; Thou from the firstWast present, and with mighty wings outspread [ 20 ]Dove-like satst brooding on the vast AbyssAnd mad'st it pregnant: What in me is darkIllumin, what is low raise and support;That to the highth of this great ArgumentI may assert Eternal Providence, [ 25 ]And justifie the wayes of God to men. John Milton, Paradise Lost

    In another moment Alice was through the glass, and had jumped lightly down into the Looking-glass room. Lewis Carroll

    All our space-time verifications invariably amount to a determination of space-time coincidences. If, for example, events consisted merely in the motion of material points, then ultimately nothing would be observable but the meeting of two or more of these points. Moreover, the results of our measuring are nothing but verifications of such meetings of the material points of our measuring instruments with other material points, coincidences between the hands of a clock and points on the clock dial, and observed point-events happening at the same place at the same time. The introduction of a system of reference serves no other purpose than to facilitate the description of the totality of such coincidences. Albert Einstein, “Grundlage der allgemeinen Relativitätstheorie”, Annalen der Physik, 49 (1916) 

    “That with no middle flight intends to soar …”
    “A wormhole is a hypothetical shortcut for travel between distant points in the universe. The wormhole has two entrances called ‘mouths,’ one (for example) near Earth, and the other (for example) in orbit around Vega, 26 light years away. The mouths are connected to each other by a tunnel through hyperspace (the wormhole) that might be only a kilometer long. If we enter the near-Earth mouth, we find ourselves in the tunnel. By traveling just one kilometer down the tunnel we reach the other mouth and emerge near Vega, 26 light-years away as measured in the external universe.” Kip Thorne 

    Prior to the development of digital computers in the 20th century, the only systems on Earth, which incorporated bulk, reliable digital storage, were living organisms. DNA, neural networks and brains, and the adaptive immune system all have the ability to robustly store large quantities of information and retrieve it when needed. But storage is tough—each of these biological systems is enormously more complicated than any existing computer, and it took biology billions of years to evolve its second and third kinds of digital storage. The intertwined complexity of DNA and protein synthesis in even the simplest living cells is such that how it came to be remains one of the central mysteries of biological science, a conundrum so profound that one of the two discoverers of the structure of DNA, Nobel Prize winner Francis Crick, believes the first living cells were placed on Earth by intelligent aliens from elsewhere in the Galaxy. (But then how did the aliens get started?) John Walker, Computation, Memory, Nature, and Life
    Is digital storage the secret of life? 

    My new paradigm, my “great Argument” in this book, “things unattempted yet in” theoretical physics “And justifie the wayes of God to men,” is that Hawking’s chronology protection conjecture is wrong and that Crick’s “aliens” are actually future humans who have mastered time travel to the past through stargates and have found at least one that was created in the very early universe, which allows them to get to Earth and create us and obviously themselves in a physical globally self-consistent Godelian strange loop in time. In other words the time travel bootstrap paradox is not a paradox at all, but is the way reality works including our own consciousness.

    "Penrose and Israel … could not conceive of jettisoning the [local frame-dependent] apparent horizon as the definition of a black hole’s surface. They especially could not conceive of jettisoning it in favor of [Hawking’s local-frame independent] absolute horizon. Why? Because the absolute horizon – paradoxically, it might seem – violates our cherished notion that an effect should not precede its cause. When matter falls into a black hole, the absolute horizon starts to grow (“effect”) before the matter reaches it (“cause”). The horizon grows in anticipation that the matter will soon be swallowed and will increase the hole’s gravitational pull … The very definition of the absolute horizon depends on what will happen in the future: on whether or not signals will ultimately escape to the distant universe. … it is a teleological definition … that relies on “final causes”… Kip Thorne P. 417 Chapt 12, Black Holes and Time Warps.

    I suspect that Roger Penrose became more open to the teleological final cause paradigm explanation of Ben Libet’s brain presponse experiments because he realized his blunder in his initial reluctance to grok Hawking’s discovery, which itself, in a spooky Godelian strange loop precognitive way came to Hawking suddenly in November of 1970 as a kind of Biblical Revelations from The Voice that crieth in the wilderness of our universal precognitive remote viewing subconscious collective cosmic mind that comes to some rather more than others. Indeed, Hawking’s physical disability may make him more open to contact with advanced higher intelligences like a Tibetan Tulku in deep meditation? Thus, Kip writes earlier in his Chapter 12:
    "The Idea hit Stephen Hawking one evening in November 1970, as he was preparing for bed. It hit with such force that he was left almost gasping for air. Never before or since has an idea come to him so quickly. … The Idea excited him. He was ecstatic … He couldn’t sleep. His mind kept roaming over the Idea’s ramifications, its connections to other things." Pp.412-13

    Das aus sich rollende
    Art thou a new strength and a new authority? 
    A first motion? 
    A self-rolling wheel? 
    Canst thou also compel stars to revolve around thee?
    Friedrich Nietzsche Thus Spake Zarathustra

1)   . I intuited the connection between the Einstein-Rosen (ER) wormhole and Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen (EPR) quantum entanglement back in 1973 when I was with Abdus Salam at the International Centre of Theoretical Physics in Trieste, Italy. This idea was published in the wacky book “Space-Time and Beyond” (Dutton, 1975) described by MIT physics historian David Kaiser in his book “How the Hippies Saved Physics.” Lenny Susskind, who I worked with at Cornell 1963-4, rediscovered this ER = EPR connection in the black hole “firewall” paradox. Lenny envisions a multi-mouthed wormhole network connecting the Hawking radiation particles their entangled twins behind the evaporating event horizon. “each escaping particle remains connected to the black hole through a wormhole” Dennis Overbye, Einstein and the Black Hole, New York Times August 13, 2013.  The no-signaling theorem corresponds to the wormhole pinching off before a light speed limited signal can pass through one mouth to the other. Now we know that traversable wormhole stargates are possible using amplified anti-gravity dark energy. This corresponds to signal-nonlocality in post-quantum theory violating orthodox quantum theory. 

1)      Localizing global symmetries requires the addition of compensating gauge connections in a fiber bundle picture of the universe. Indeed, the original global symmetry group is a smaller subgroup of the local symmetry group. The gauge connections define parallel transport of tensor/spinor fields. They correspond to the interactions between the several kinds of charges of the above symmetries. I shall go into more details of this elsewhere. Indeed localizing the above spacetime symmetries corresponds to generalizations of Einstein’s General Relativity as a local gauge theory.[i] For example, localizing the space and time global translational symmetries means that the Lie group transformations at different events (places and times) in the universe are independent of each other. If one believes in the classical special relativity postulate of locality that there are no faster-than-light actions at a distance, then the transformations must certainly be independent of each other between pairs of spacelike separated events that cannot be connected by a light signal. However, the local gauge principle is much stronger, because it applies to pairs of events that can be connected not only by a light signal, but also by slower-than-light timelike signals. This poses a paradox when we add quantum entanglement.  Aspect’s experiment and others since then, show that faster-than-light influences do in fact exist in the conditional probabilities (aka correlations) connecting observed eigenvalues of quantum observable operators independently chosen by Alice and Bob when spacelike separated. I shall return to this in more detail elsewhere. However, the no entanglement-signaling postulate is thought by many mainstream theoretical physicists to define orthodox quantum theory. It’s believed that its violation would also violate the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Note that the entanglement signal need not be faster-than-light over a spacelike separation between sender and receiver. It could be lightlike or timelike separated as well. Indeed it can even be retrocausal with the message sent back-from-the-future. John Archibald Wheeler’s “delayed choice experiment” is actually consistent with orthodox quantum theory’s no-signaling premise. The point is, that one cannot decode the message encoded in the pattern of entanglement until one has a classical signal key that only propagates forward in time. What one sees before the classical key arrives and a correlation analysis is computed is only local random white noise. However, data on precognitive remote viewing as well as brain presponse data suggests that no-entanglement signaling is only true for dead matter. Nobel Prize physicist, Brian Josephson first published on this. I have also suggested it using Bohm’s ontological interpretation (Lecture 8 of Michael Towler’s Cambridge University Lectures on Bohm’s Pilot Wave). Antony Valentini has further developed this idea in several papers. Post-quantum “signal nonlocality” dispenses with the need to wait for the light-speed limited retarded signal key propagating from past to future. Local non-random noise will be seen in violation of the S-Matrix unitarity “conservation of information” postulate of G. ‘t Hooft, L. Susskind et-al.  Indeed the distinguishable non-orthogonality of entangled Glauber macro-quantum coherent states seems to be the way to get signal nonlocality. This gets us to the “Black Hole War” between Susskind and Hawking about information loss down evaporating black holes. It seems that Hawking caved in too fast to Susskind back in Dublin in 2004. I intuited the connection between the Einstein-Rosen (ER) wormhole and Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen (EPR) quantum entanglement back in 1973 when I was with Abdus Salam at the International Centre of Theoretical Physics in Trieste, Italy. This idea was published in the wacky book “Space-Time and Beyond” (Dutton, 1975) described by MIT physics historian David Kaiser in his book “How the Hippies Saved Physics.” Lenny Susskind, who I worked with at Cornell 1963-4, rediscovered this ER = EPR connection in the black hole “firewall” paradox.



[i] Localizing the four space and time translations corresponds to Einstein’s general coordinate transformations that are now gauge transformations defining an equivalence class of physically identical representations of the same curvature tensor field. However, the compensating gauge connection there corresponds to torsion fields not curvature fields. The curvature field corresponds to localizing the three space-space rotations and the three space-time Lorentz boost rotations together. Einstein’s General Relativity in final form (1916) has zero torsion with non-zero curvature. However, T.W.B. Kibble from Imperial College, London in 1961 showed how to get the Einstein-Cartan torsion + curvature extension of Einstein’s 1916 curvature-only model by localizing the full 10-parameter Poincare symmetry Lie group of Einstein’s 1905 Special Relativity. The natural geometric objects to use are the four Cartan tetrads that correspond to Local Inertial Frame (LIF) detector/observers that are not rotating about their Centers of Mass (COM) that are on weightless zero g-force timelike geodesics.  Zero torsion is then imposed as an ad-hoc constraint to regain Einstein’s 1916 model as a limiting case. The ten parameter Poincare Lie group is subgroup of the fifteen parameter conformal group that adds four constant proper acceleration hyperbolic Wolfgang Rindler horizon boosts and one dilation scale transformation that corresponds to Herman Weyl’s original failed attempt to unify gravity with electromagnetism. The spinor Dirac square roots of the conformal group correspond to Roger Penrose’s “twistors.”

 

My review of Jim Woodward's Making Starships book - V1 under construction
  • Jack Sarfatti Sarfatti’s Commentaries on James F. Woodward’s book 
    Making Starships and Star Gates 
    The Science of Interstellar Transport and Absurdly Benign Wormholes

    The book has many good insights except for some ambiguous statements regarding:

    1) The equivalence principle that is the foundation of Einstein’s theory of the gravitational field. This seems to be due to the author’s not clearly distinguishing between local frame invariant proper acceleration and frame dependent coordinate acceleration. Thus, the author says that Newton’s gravity force is eliminated in an “accelerating frame.” In fact, it is eliminated in a Local Inertial Frame (LIF) that has zero proper acceleration, though it has coordinate acceleration relative to the surface of Earth for example. All points of the rigid spherical surface of Earth have non-zero proper accelerations pointing radially outward. This violates common sense and confuses even some physicists as well as engineers not to mention laymen. It is a fact of the Alice in Wonderland topsy-turvy surreal world of the post-modern physics of Einstein’s relativity especially when combined with the faster-than-light and back from the future entanglement of particles and fields in quantum theory and beyond. 
    2) I find the author’s discussion of fictitious inertial pseudo forces puzzling. I include the centripetal force as a fictitious force in the limit of Newton’s particle mechanics sans Einstein’s local inertial frame dragging from rotating sources. That is, every local frame artifact that is inside the Levi-Civita connection is a fictitious inertial pseudo force. This includes, Coriolis, centrifugal, Euler, and most importantly Newton’s gravity force that is not a real force. The terms inside the Levi-Civita connection are not felt by the test particle under observation. Instead, they describe real forces acting on the observer’s local rest frame. A real force acts locally on a test particle’s accelerometer. It causes an accelerometer’s pointer to move showing a g-force. In contrast, Baron Munchausen sitting on a cannonball in free fall is weightless. This was essentially Einstein’s “happiest thought” leading him to the equivalence principle the cornerstone of his 1916 General Relativity of the Gravitational Field. 
    3) A really serious flaw in the book is the author’s dependence on Dennis Sciama’s electromagnetic equations for gravity. In fact, these equations only apply approximately in the weak field limit of Einstein’s field equations in the background-dependent case using the absolute non-dynamical globally-flat Minkowski space-time with gravity as a tiny perturbation. The author uses these equations way out of their limited domain of validity. In particular, the Sciama equations cannot describe the two cosmological horizons past and future of our dark energy accelerating expanding observable universe. What we can see with our telescopes is only a small patch (aka “causal diamond”) of a much larger “inflation bubble” corresponding to Max Tegmark’s “Level 1” in his four level classification of the use of “multiverse” and “parallel universes.” Our two cosmological horizons, past and future, that are thin spherical shells of light with us inside them at their exact centers may in fact be hologram computer screens projecting us as 3D images in a virtual reality quantum computer simulation. This is really a crazy idea emerging from Gerardus ‘t Hooft, Leonard Susskind, Seth Lloyd and others. Is it crazy enough to be true? 
  • Jack Sarfatti 4) John Cramer’s Foreword: I agree with Cramer that it’s too risky in the long run for us to be confined to the Earth and even to this solar system. British Astronomer Royal, Lord Martin Rees in his book “Our Final Hour” gives detailed reasons. Of course if a vacuum strangelet develops like Kurt Vonnegut’s “Ice-9”, then our entire observable universe can be wiped out, our causal diamond and beyond shattered, and there is no hope. That is essentially the apocalyptic worst-case scenario of the Bible’s “Revelations” and we will not dwell on it any further. Let’s hope it’s not a precognitive remote viewing like what the CIA observed in the Stanford Research Institute studies in the 1970’s.  Cramer cites the NASA-DARPA 100 Year Star Ship Project that I was involved with in the first two meetings. Cramer’s text is in quotes and italics. There is “little hope of reaching the nearby stars in a human lifetime using any conventional propulsion techniques … the universe is simply too big, and the stars are too far away. … What is needed is either trans-spatial shortcuts such as wormholes to avoid the need to traverse the enormous distances or a propulsion technique that somehow circumvents Newton’s third law and does not require the storage, transport and expulsion of large volumes of reaction mass.”
    Yes, indeed. I conjecture as a working hypothesis based on the UFO evidence that traversable wormhole stargate time travel machines are the only way to go with warp drive used only as a secondary mechanism at low speeds mainly for silent hovering near the surfaces of planets and for dogfights with conventional aerospace craft. The stargates do not have the blue shift problem that the Alcubierre warp drive has although the Natario warp drive does not have the blue shift problem (high-energy collisions with particles and radiation in the path of the starship). Newton’s third law that every force acting on a material object has an equal and opposite inertial reaction force on the source of that force is a conservation law that follows from symmetry Lie groups of transformations in parameters of the dynamical action of the entire closed system of source and material object. This is a very general organizing principle of theoretical physics known as Noether’s theorem for global symmetries in which the transformations are the same everywhere for all times in the universe. For example:
    Space Translation Symmetry Linear Momentum Conservation
    Time Translation Symmetry Energy Conservation
    Space-Space Rotation Symmetry Angular Momentum Conservation
    Space-Time Rotation Symmetry
    Internal U1 EM Force Symmetry Conserve 1 Electric Charge
    Internal SU2 Weak Force Symmetry Conserve 3 Weak Flavor Charges
    Internal SU3 Strong Force Symmetry Conserve 8 Strong Color Charges
  • Jack Sarfatti In a propellantless propulsion system without the rocket ejection of real particles and/or radiation one must include the gravity curvature field (dynamical space-time itself) as a source and sink of linear momentum. Furthermore, if we include quantum corrections to the classical fields there is the remote possibility of using virtual particle zero point fluctuations inside the vacuum as a source and sink of linear momentum. However, the conventional wisdom is that this kind of controllable small-scale metastable vacuum phase transition is impossible in principle and to do so would violate the Second Law of Thermodynamics (extracting work from an absolute zero temperature heat reservoir). Even if we could do the seemingly impossible, propellantless propulsion while necessary is not sufficient for a true warp drive. A true warp drive must be weightless (zero g-force) timelike geodesic and without time dilation for the crew relative to the external observer outside the warp bubble that they were initially clock synchronized with. Localizing global symmetries requires the addition of compensating gauge connections in a fiber bundle picture of the universe. Indeed, the original global symmetry group is a smaller subgroup of the local symmetry group. The gauge connections define parallel transport of tensor/spinor fields. They correspond to the interactions between the several kinds of charges of the above symmetries. I shall go into more details of this elsewhere. Indeed localizing the above spacetime symmetries corresponds to generalizations of Einstein’s General Relativity as a local gauge theory. For example, localizing the space and time global translational symmetries means that the Lie group transformations at different events (places and times) in the universe are independent of each other. If one believes in the classical special relativity postulate of locality that there are no faster-than-light actions at a distance, then the transformations must certainly be independent of each other between pairs of spacelike events that cannot be connected by a light signal. However, the local gauge principle is much stronger, because it applies to pairs of spacelike events that can be connected not only by a light signal, but also by slower-than-light timelike signals. This poses a paradox when we add quantum entanglement. Aspect’s experiment and others since then, show that faster-than-light influences do in fact exist in the conditional probabilities (aka correlations) connecting observed eigenvalues of quantum observable operators independently chosen by Alice and Bob when spacelike separated. I shall return to this in more detail elsewhere. Finally, we have the P.W. Anderson’s anti-reductionist “More is different” emergence of complex systems of real particles in their quantum ground states with quasi-particles and collective mode excitations in soft condensed matter in which the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. This corresponds to spontaneous symmetry breaking of the quantum vacuum’s virtual particles, in its high energy standard model analog, to the Higgs-Goldstone “God Particle” now found at ~ 125 Gev in CERN’s LHC that gives rest masses to leptons and quarks as well as to the three weak radioactivity force spin 1 gauge W-bosons though not to the single spin 1 photon gauge boson and the eight spin strong force gluon gauge bosons. In this quantum field theory picture, the near field non-radiating interactions among the leptons and quarks are caused by the exchange of virtual spacelike (tachyonic faster-than-light off-mass-shell) gauge bosons continuously randomly emitted and absorbed by the leptons and quarks. To make matters more complicated unlike the single rest massless U1 photon, the three weak rest massive SU2 W bosons and the eight strong rest massless SU3 gluons carry their respective Lie algebra charges, therefore, they self-interact. A single virtual gluon can split into two gluons for example. The SU3 quark-quark-gluon interaction gets stronger at low energy longer separations. This is called quantum chromodynamic confinement and it explains why we do not see free quarks in the present epoch of our causal diamond observable universe patch of the multiverse. Free quarks were there in a different quantum vacuum thermodynamic phase shortly after the Alpha Point chaotic inflation creation of our observable universe that we see with telescopes etc. Indeed, most of the rest mass of protons and neutrons comes from the confined Heisenberg uncertainty principle kinetic energy of the three real confined up and down quarks and their plasma cloud of virtual zero point gluons and virtual quark-antiquark pairs. The Higgs Yukawa interaction rest masses of three bound real quarks is about 1/20 or less than the total hadronic rest masses.

    The author, James F. Woodward (JFW), introduces Mach’s Principle though in an ambiguous way to my mind. He says that the computation of the rest mass from local quantum field theory as has been in fact accomplished for hadrons by MIT Nobel Laureate, Frank Wilczek et-al using supercomputers is not sufficient to explain the inertia of Newton’s Second Law of Particle Mechanics. This does sound like Occult Astrology at first glance, but we do have the 1940 Wheeler-Feynman classical electrodynamics in which radiation reaction is explained as a back-from-the-future retro causal advanced influence from the future absorber on the past emitter in a globally self-consistent loop in time. Indeed, Feynman’s path integral quantum theory grew out of this attempt. Hoyle and Narlikar, and John Cramer have extended the original classical Wheeler-Feynman theory to quantum theory. Indeed, the zero point virtual photons causing spontaneous emission decay of excited atomic electron states can be interpreted as a back from the future effect. The electromagnetic field in the classical Wheeler-Feynman model did not have independent dynamical degrees of freedom, but in the Feynman diagram quantum theory they do. However, the retro causal feature survives. Therefore the only way I can make sense of JFWs fringe physics proposal is to make the following conjecture. Let m0 be the renormalized rest mass of a real particle computed in the standard model of local quantum field theory. Then, the observed rest mass m0’ equals a dimensionless nonlocal coefficient C multiplied by the local m0 renormalized rest mass. Mach’s Principle is then C = 0 in an empty universe of only real test particles without any sources causing spacetime to bend. Furthermore, C splits into past history retarded and future destiny advanced pieces. Now is there any Popper falsifiable test of this excess baggage?
  • Jack Sarfatti 1) Springer-Praxis Books in Space Exploration (2013)
    2) Einstein in Zurich over one hundred years ago read of a house painter falling off his ladder saying he felt weightless.
    3) I have since disassociated myself from that project, as have other hard
    ...See More
  • Jack Sarfatti 4) Roughly speaking, for particle mechanics, the dynamical action is the time integral of the kinetic energy minus the potential energy. The classical physics action principle is that the actual path is an extremum in the sense of the calculus of variations relative to all nearby possible paths with the same initial and final conditions. Richard P. Feynman generalized this classical idea to quantum theory where the actual extremum path corresponds to constructive interference of complex number classical action phases one for each possible path. There are more complications for velocity-dependent non-central forces and there is also the issue of initial and final conditions. The action is generalized to classical fields where one must use local kinetic and potential analog densities and integrate the field Lagrangian density over the 4D spacetime region bounded by initial history and final teleological destiny 3D hypersurfaces boundary constraints. Indeed, Yakir Aharonov has generalized this to quantum theory in which there are back-from-the-future retro causal influences on present weak quantum measurements made between the past initial and future final boundary constraints. Indeed, in our observable expanding accelerating universe causal diamond, these boundary constraints, I conjecture, are our past cosmological particle horizon from the moment of chaotic inflation leading to the hot Big Bang, together with our future dark energy de Sitter event horizon. Both of them are BIT pixelated 2D hologram computer screens with us as IT voxelated “weak measurement” 3D hologram images projected from them. The horizon pixel BIT quanta of area are of magnitude (~10^-33 cm or 10^19 Gev)^2. The interior bulk voxel IT quanta of volume are of magnitude (~10^-13 cm or 1 Gev)^3. This ensures that the number N of BIT horizon pixels equals the number of IT interior voxels in a one-to-one correspondence. The actually measured dark energy density is proportional to the inverse fourth power of the geometric mean of the smallest quantum gravity Planck length with the largest Hubble-sized scale of our future de Sitter causal diamond ~ 10^28 cm. This, when combined with the Unruh effect, corresponds to the Stefan-Boltzmann law of black body radiation that started quantum physics back in 1900. However, this redshifted Hawking horizon blackbody radiation must be coming back from our future de Sitter cosmological horizon not from our past particle horizon.
  • Jack Sarfatti 5) Localizing the four space and time translations corresponds to Einstein’s general coordinate transformations that are now gauge transformations defining an equivalence class of physically identical representations of the same curvature tensor field. However, the compensating gauge connection there corresponds to torsion fields not curvature fields. The curvature field corresponds to localizing the three space-space rotations and the three space-time Lorentz boost rotations together. Einstein’s General Relativity in final form (1916) has zero torsion with non-zero curvature. However, T.W.B. Kibble from Imperial College, London in 1961 showed how to get the Einstein-Cartan torsion + curvature extension of Einstein’s 1916 curvature-only model by localizing the full 10-parameter Poincare symmetry Lie group of Einstein’s 1905 Special Relativity. The natural geometric objects to use are the four Cartan tetrads that correspond to Local Inertial Frame (LIF) detector/observers that are not rotating about their Centers of Mass (COM) that are on weightless zero g-force timelike geodesics. Zero torsion is then imposed as an ad-hoc constraint to regain Einstein’s 1916 model as a limiting case. The ten parameter Poincare Lie group is subgroup of the fifteen parameter conformal group that adds four constant proper acceleration hyperbolic Wolfgang Rindler horizon boosts and one dilation scale transformation that corresponds to Herman Weyl’s original failed attempt to unify gravity with electromagnetism. The spinor Dirac square roots of the conformal group correspond to Roger Penrose’s “twistors.”
  •  
     
  1. It seems to me that Bohmian beables are obviously required.
    1) fact is that we live in a classical macroscopic world where the fundamental observable is Maxwell's local classical electromagnetic field tensor F
    obeying in Cartan form notation
    F = dA
    dF = 0
    d*F = *J
    * = Hodge dual
    All our information about other fermion matter fields comes indirectly via F and also A if you include the Bohm-Aharonov quantum effect.
    Therefore, the basic classical observable is the F electromagnetic field.
    As Basil Hiley explains this beable F is an infinite-dimensional field configuration on a spacelike or lightlike surface in which each spacetime event is a "dimension". It has a super Q and photons are not localized like massive fermions are. If, instead of the continuum, we use a voxelated 3D + 1 world crystal lattice (Kleinert) then the hologram principle tells us that the lattice spacing is not the Planck length Lp, but rather it is L where
    L^3 = Lp^2A^1/2
    A = area - entropy of the horizon screen Seth pixelated computer
    The number of BITs in J. A. Wheeler's
    IT FROM BIT
    is N = A/4Lp^2 = A^3/2/L^3 ~ 10^52/10^-70 ~ 10^122 in our actual causal diamond pictured here
    Showing Apast and A future with 3D volumes of both retarded history and advanced destiny influence on the 3D lightlike slices. I think Susskind's student Raphael Buosso at UC Berkeley has worked this all out mathematically though perhaps not with the advanced Wheeler-Feynman -Cramer-Aharonov effect?
    Note the change in Heisenberg's uncertainty principle which according to Susskind et-al is
    &x ~ h/&p + Lp^2&p/h
    However, I think it may really be
    &x ~ h/&p + L^2&p/h
    Note that
    Lp = 10^-35 meters
    A^1/2 = 10^26 meters
    L^3 ~ 10^-7010^26 = 10^-44 meters^3
    L ~ 10^-15 meter ~ 1 fermi ~ 1 Gev
    for the voxel unit cell of the hologram image world crystal lattice
    Hawking's black body radiation is a horizon surface effect
    T ~ A^-1/2
    I predict a second high temperature horizon thickness Hawking radiation of temperature
    T' ~ (LcA^1/2)^-1/2
    (LcA^1/2) is the proper length quantum thickness of the Horizon as a "stretched membrane" (Kip Thorne)
    Therefore, the stretched membrane is a very efficient Carnot limited heat engine with
    (Work outpu/Heat input ) < 1 - (Lc/A^1'2)^1/2 ---> 0 as A^1/2 ---> Lp (Planck black hole)
    Lc is the formal UV cutoff
    Now there may be a spectrum of such cutoff's. Sinziana Paduroiu's astrophysicist colleagues in Paris suggest that Susskind's cut off of Lp corresponds to Hawking gravity wave black body radiation.
    Note that for precision cosmology (LpA^1/2)^1/2 ~ (10^-3510^26)^1/2 ~ (10^-9)^1/2 ~ 10^-3 meters ~ 10^11 Hz corresponding to the observed dark energy density. However, it is easily shown that this must come from our future horizon as a retro-causal back-from-the-future "destiny" (Aharonov) effect.
    Search Results
    Back From the Future | DiscoverMagazine.com
    discovermagazine.com/2010/apr/01-back-from-the-future
    Aug 26, 2010 – A series of quantum experiments shows that measurements performed in the future can influence the present. Does that mean the universe has ...
    On Jun 26, 2013, at 12:18 PM, Ruth Kastner <rekastner@hotmail.com> wrote:
    Thanks Jack, I'll look at these. But to the extent that you have to adduce a Bohmian picture to support your claim, I can't buy it, because I don't think the 'beable' approach is correct. I don't agree that there are 'beables'. RK
    Back From the Future | DiscoverMagazine.com
    discovermagazine.com
    A series of quantum experiments shows that measurements performed in the future can influence the present. Does that mean the universe has a destiny—and the laws of physics pull us inexorably toward our prewritten fate?
Stephen Hawking's warning on ET Contact
Like · · Share
  • Jack Sarfatti Stephen Hawking has warned us to keep a low profile with ET.

    Stephen Hawking's Tips for Contacting E.T: Everyone Please Just ...

    gizmodo.com/.../stephen-hawkings-tips-for-contacting-et-every...
    by Jack Loftus - in 107 Google+ circles
    Apr 25, 2010 – Stephen Hawking, brilliant scientist, has a simple message for humanity when it comes to contacting E.T.: Shut up. No, really. The pessimistic ...
    Stephen Hawking aliens warning: Contacting ET 'a bad idea' | Metro ...

    metro.co.uk/.../stephen-hawking-aliens-warning-contacting-et-a-...
    by Ted Thornhill - in 22 Google+ circles
    Apr 25, 2010 – Stephen Hawking: Aliens warningThe world-reknowned theoretical physicist rings the alarm bells about reaching out to ET in a new ...
    Stephen Hawking says Earth should not phone ET - New Scientist
    www.newscientist.com/blogs/.../04/stephen-hawking-says-earth-sho.html
    Apr 26, 2010 – Should we try to make contact with ET? Certainly not, says StevenHawking, citing concerns that our Earthly resources would be plundered.
    Stephen Hawking: "We've Been Overlooked by Advanced ET ...
    www.dailygalaxy.com/.../stephen-hawkings-wager-we-have-been-overlo...
    Nov 22, 2011 – In his famous lecture, Life in the Universe, Stephen Hawking asks: "What are the chances that we will encounter some alien form of life, as we ...
    Stay home ET. Stephen Hawking: Aliens may pose risks
    phys.org/news191420676.html
    Apr 25, 2010 – (AP) -- British astrophysicist Stephen Hawking says aliens are out there, but it could be too dangerous for humans to interact with extraterrestrial ...
    Hawking: Aliens may pose risks to Earth - Technology & science ...
    www.nbcnews.com/id/.../ns/.../hawking-aliens-may-pose-risks-earth/
    Apr 25, 2010 – British astrophysicist Stephen Hawking says aliens are out there, but it could be too dangerous for humans to interact with extraterrestrial life.
    If Aliens Exist,They May Come to Get Us, Stephen Hawking Says ...

    www.space.com/8288-aliens-exist-stephen-hawking.html
    by Clara Moskowitz - in 395 Google+ circles
    Apr 26, 2010 – If intelligent alien life forms do exist, they might not be the friendly cosmic neighbors the people of Earth are looking for, famed British scientist ...
  • Jack Sarfatti On May 17, 2013, at 11:04 AM, Adam Crowl wrote:

    "Of course no one ever discusses the theories that Eric's collaborator, Jacques Vallee, has about the nature and purpose of UFOs. Too scary? That ET might have a sinister agenda? Might want to mess with our heads for their own ends?"

    I replied:
    Yes, you are correct. However, if Jacques is correct there is even less reason to support clunky rockets for interstellar travel! Indeed, Dan Throop Smith is running with Vallee's ball in his comical eccentric way of course.

    Of course, any advanced civilization with warp-wormhole WEAPONRY will also most likely have post-quantum signal nonlocality mind-control psychotronics.
    Subquantum Information and Computation
    Antony Valentini
    (Submitted on 11 Mar 2002 (v1), last revised 12 Apr 2002 (this version, v2))
    It is argued that immense physical resources - for nonlocal communication, espionage, and exponentially-fast computation - are hidden from us by quantum noise, and that this noise is not fundamental but merely a property of an equilibrium state in which the universe happens to be at the present time. It is suggested that 'non-quantum' or nonequilibrium matter might exist today in the form of relic particles from the early universe. We describe how such matter could be detected and put to practical use. Nonequilibrium matter could be used to send instantaneous signals, to violate the uncertainty principle, to distinguish non-orthogonal quantum states without disturbing them, to eavesdrop on quantum key distribution, and to outpace quantum computation (solving NP-complete problems in polynomial time).
    Comments: 10 pages, Latex, no figures. To appear in 'Proceedings of the Second Winter Institute on Foundations of Quantum Theory and Quantum Optics: Quantum Information Processing', ed. R. Ghosh (Indian Academy of Science, Bangalore, 2002). Second version: shortened at editor's request; extra material on outpacing quantum computation (solving NP-complete problems in polynomial time)
    Subjects: Quantum Physics (quant-ph)
    Journal reference: Pramana - J. Phys. 59 (2002) 269-277
    DOI: 10.1007/s12043-002-0117-1
    Report number: Imperial/TP/1-02/15
    Cite as: arXiv:quant-ph/0203049
    (or arXiv:quant-ph/0203049v2 for this version)

    They will have solved the mind-matter problem perhaps along the lines I have suggested well described here by Michael Towler in Lecture 8

    http://www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~mdt26/pilot_waves.html

On Apr 12, 2013, at 12:22 AM, Ruth Kastner <rekastner@hotmail.com> wrote:


I agree that 'no mysticism' need be involved in explaining results of measurements, and that (to put it charitably)  Wheeler's contributions to physics were far greater than his contributions to philosophy of physics.

 I address these foundational matters in my new book on PTI. Bohm's theory may seem to provide a handy way to solve the measurement problem, however it encounters some serious challenges at the relativistic level.  It has also been argued by Harvey Brown and David Wallace (2005) that even at the nonrelativistic level there are problems with the idea that a Bohmian corpuscle can give you a measurement result (ref. on request).

please send reference


On the other hand  TI (extended in terms of PTI) finds its strongest expression at the relativistic level, in that one has to take absorption into account in the relativistic domain in any case, and absorption is the key overlooked aspect according to TI. In fact I argue that the measurement problem remains unsolved in the competing 'mainstream' nonrelativistic interpretations because they neglect the creation and annihilation of quanta. Emission is action by creation operators, and absorption is action by annihilation operators. You can get a definitive end to the measurement process by taking absorption (aka annihilation) into account. This happens way before the macroscopic level (see http://arxiv.org/abs/1204.5227, section 5) so that you don't get the usual infinite regress of entanglement of macroscopic objects which is the measurement problem.

RK

I agree about the importance of including both creation and destruction in a time loop, but I don't see off-hand that is a problem for Bohm's theory.

Indeed, in my debate with Jim Woodward on dark energy density hc/Lp^2A as redshifted advanced Wheeler-Feynman Hawking radiation from our detector dependent future de Sitter horizon where the Hawking radiation density is hc/Lp^4 - the TI loop in time means that we must use the static LNIF representation of the metric for the virtual electron-positron pairs stuck at r = A^1/2 - Lp relative to the detector at r = 0 where

gtt = 1 - r^2/A

giving 1 + zstaticLNIF ~ (A^1/2/Lp)^1/2 = femit/fdetect

not the usual FRW metric where gtt = 1 and there is no horizon - that works for co-moving absorbers that will see the effect of expanding space for retarded radiation from us &  1 + zcomovingLIF = anow/athen

The static LNIF redshift factor for advanced radiation source frequency c/Lp from the future horizon back to our past detector is ~ (Lp/A^1/2)^1/2.

Even for retarded black body radiation reaching us from a past black hole horizon with Hawking's original redshifted peak frequency c/A^1/2, there should be a second peak signal at c/(LpA^1/2)^1/2 from radial oscillations of the horizon. Hawking's signal is from surface mode vibrations of the horizon.