From: JACK SARFATTI <Sarfatti@PacBell.net>
Subject: [Sarfatti_Physics_Seminars] On the locality of classical physics, fictitious forces & the nonlocality of gravity energy as a Landauer thermodynamic computation
Date: December 30, 2012 4:00:57 AM PST
On Dec 30, 2012, at 12:41 AM, "jfwoodward@juno.com" <jfwoodward@juno.com> wrote:
Gentlefolk,
This conversation has evolved to much the same point as the conversation between Paul, Jack and me a year ago did, and not much has changed. There's a reason for this. People don't generally change their minds about things they believe, even in the face of evidence that they ought to. In Jack's case, he is convinced that all physics is literally local, that distant things and events cannot play a role in how thing occur in our local here and now.
Jack: No Jim what you just said is NOT my belief. You have not understood my writing. I said the classical physics is mostly local, but quantum physics is not. I never said ALL physics is local. I quoted John Archibald Wheeler that "Physics is simple, when it's local." In classical gravity we do have a kind of nonlocality of the energy of the pure gravity field because of the equivalence principle so that is another kind of nonlocality apparently different from quantum nonlocality. In Bohm's ontological quantum interpretation, the quantum potential is both nonlocal and form/context dependent. The violation of Bell's locality inequality proves to my mind that quantum physics is nonlocal - the alternative interpretations are not viable in my opinion. I am also very aware of Wheeler-Feynman's classical electrodynamics, which though retro-causal, is still local in the sense that the back-from-the-future classical advanced EM waves are restricted to the classical light cone.
JW: This belief is widely shared in the physics community, and has been for many, many years.
JS: It's NOT my belief about ALL physics. Rovelli in his free online book Quantum Gravity explains in detail why in CLASSICAL GR we never need Mach's Principle in any real problem.
JW: It was, for example, Faraday's motivation in creating the field concept. And while fields, the gravitational field in particular, are thought to act over "astronomical" distances, until the advent of modern cosmology, those distances were not large enough to encompass enough "matter" to make any difference worth mentioning in local circumstances (other than explaining orbital motion up to the galactic level). This has led Jack to believe that technically "fictitous" forces are literally fictitious.
JS: The mathematics of elementary mechanics in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fictitious_force#cite_note-Iro-6 shows that in the case of the observation of a geodesic test particle by a non-inertial observer, there are fictitious pseudo-forces that appear to act on the geodesic test particle that are not felt by the test particle. There are, however, real forces on the non-inertial observer. The test is what accelerometers show. The pointer on a properly working accelerometer is always at the zero. The pointer on the accelerometer clamped to the non-inertial observer is always off zero. Indeed, that is the essence of Einstein's Equivalence Principle - "Einstein's happiest thought".
The happiest thought of my life.
physics.ucr.edu/~wudka/Physics7/Notes_www/node85.html
The happiest thought of my life. In 1907, only two years after the publication of his Special Theory of Relativity, Einstein wrote a paper attempting to modify ...
general relativity - Einstein's "happiest thought" - Physics
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Aug 10, 2011 – Einstein described his discovery of the equivalence principle as the "happiest thought of my life". Why? What, in broad conceptual terms, is the ...
The Equivalence Principle | Suite101
suite101.com/article/the-equivalence-principle-a43525
Feb 3, 2008 – Einstein's “Happiest Thought”. The answer is that these two phenomenon – gravitational and inertial mass – are not just too different things ...
How Did Einstein Think?
www.pitt.edu/~jdnorton/Goodies/Einstein_think/index.html
Nov 15, 2007 – Its first phase was devoted to systematic constructions that derived directly from Einstein's "happiest thought." In it, acceleration produced a ...
Einstein's Third Paradise, by Gerald Holton
www.aip.org/history/einstein/essay-einsteins-third-paradise.htm
It contains the passage in which Einstein revealed what in his words was "the happiest thought of my life" [der gluecklichste Gedanke meines Lebens] – a ...
[PPT]
Einstein's Happiest Thought
www.phys.hawaii.edu/~solsen/pub/.../Micro_lect7.ppt
File Format: Microsoft Powerpoint - Quick View
Einstein's Happiest Thought. Micro-world Macro-World Lecture 7. Equivalence between gravity & acceleration. a. Man in a closed box on Earth. Man in a closed ...
In contrast, in the totally different total experimental arrangement when the test particle is constrained by real electromagnetic-weak-gravity forces, then what is a fictitious centripetal force mw x (w x r), for example, in the geodesic test particle, shows up as the effect of a real local contact force pushing the test particle off geodesic. For example, in the cyclotron in an inertial frame
Newton's 2nd law F = ma in the inertial frame is
e v x B/c = mw x (w x r)
i.e. a radially inward centripetal effect of the real magnetic Lorentz force.
v = w x r
when B is uniform and constant over all parts of the test particle's off-geodesic worldline.
therefore, the cyclotron frequency is
w = eB/mc
the orbit radius r is computed from
r = veB/w^2mc = v(eB/mc)/(eB/mc)^2 = mvc/eB = v/w
i.e. the bigger the linear momentum of the test particle, the bigger the orbit, the bigger the magnetic field the smaller the orbit.
A force that is fictitious for a geodesic test particle can re-appear in the same form as the effect whose cause is a real local contact force pushing that same test particle off-geodesic.
Newton's third law is always obeyed locally by EM-weak-strong gauge forces. In the cyclotron case, for example, the test charge pushes back with an equal but opposite radially outward centrifugal - m w x (w x r) electrical contact back-reaction force on the magnetic flux field.
My other point is that the inertial = gravitational masses m (active and passive) are free parameters in classical Einstein GR and Mach's Principle can't compute them. If you deny that, then compute the electron mass for us using Mach's Principle. No, you need Quantum Chromodynamics to compute hadron masses from the rest masses of quarks. The rest masses of leptons and quarks from the Higgs vacuum field are still basically free parameters leading to the controversial multiverse cosmic landscape conjecture.
Amazon.com: The Cosmic Landscape: String Theory and the Illusion ...
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JW: And what cannot be attributed to mainstream classical physics and run of the mill quantum theory gets laid off on the supposedly magical properties of the quantum vacuum -- this notwithstanding that the vacuum is measured to be empty. A lot of people believe this too. Perhap even you?
What century are you in Jim? The is the 21st Century and you seem to be stuck in the 19th. There is lots of direct evidence for the reality of random incoherent virtual particles in the quantum vacuum as radiative corrections, e.g. Lamb shift. Also near fields are coherent Glauber states of virtual quanta beyond the one random zero point quantum per field oscillator of the Casimir force etc.
Search Results
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JW: Paul, I suspect, shares much of Jack's core beliefs. But he is also a follower of Hans Ohanian (and formerly, Husein Yilmaz). Ohanian believes, if memory serves, that the Equivalence Principle is actually wrong
JS: Yes, that is what's wrong with all of Z's "original" work in the foundations of GR in my opinion. But I think Jim that's also true of your Sciama Machian theory.
JW: -- because tidal effects supposedly make it possible to discriminate gravity from accelerated reference frames.
JS: Of course that is hogwash based on a misunderstanding of Einstein's Equivalence Principle (EEP). All Einstein said was that special relativity works locally. Einstein never said that the curvature tensor must vanish locally. That is a RED HERRING. The actual equation is
Ruvwl(LNIF) = eu^Iev^Jew^Kel^LRIJKL(LIF) & its inverse
where the e's are the 16 tetrad components connecting COINCIDENT geodesic/non-rotating LIFS with off-geodesic and/or rotating LNIFs.
It's the Newtonian fictitious inertial pseudo-force represented by the torsion-free symmetric Levi-Civita connection {uvw}LNIF that is zero in the coincident LIF.
JW: This confers and "objective" status on the gravitational field that it does not have in standard general relativity. The motives of those who hold this belief are complicated and not necessarily universally shared in this community.
JS: In my opinion it's crank pseudo-physics to hold that opinion based on a mis-understanding of Einstein's idea.
JW: I'm not sure why Paul in particular is motivated to believe in this "objectification" of gravity. But whatever that motivation may be, it does lead him to the correct inference that gravitational and inertial forces are physically fundamentally different from truly fictitious forces -- Coriolis forces in particular.
JS: Your sentence here Jim is "not even wrong" in Wolfgang Pauli's sense in my opinion because, as I showed a jillion times now you simply muddle the geodesic test particle seen from an accelerating non-inertial frame with the off-geodesic test particle case seen from an inertial frame. Indeed, your view violates Einstein's Equivalence Principle as much as Z's does in the end.
JW: While Paul is willing to confer real physical status (that is, in his words, dynamical) on inertial forces, he is not willing it seems to entertain the possibility that inertial forces are really just gravitational forces produced by the chiefly most distant "matter" in the universe.
JS: There is no such thing as a real gravity force in Einstein's GR as there is in Newton's gravity theory. Therefore what you say here is nonsense from muddling the two different paradigms Einstein's and Newton's. What about gravity collapse you might say? Imagine a gas of particles all on geodesics falling into a proto-star. When these geodesic particles collide with each other the electromagnetic-weak-strong forces take over and the particles are mutually pushed off their initial geodesics. The gas heats up from the EM-weak-strong interaction collisions and the nonlocal energy of the gravity field from the less random kinetic energy of the geodesic particles is converted to more random local heat increasing the thermodynamic entropy. Note that when you walk uphill the work done is actually from electrical contact forces. Your original world line is off-geodesic and remains so in the entire process. When you fall off the cliff you transit from an off-geodesic world line to an intermediate geodesic world line but end up an another off-geodesic, so again just like the formation of the proto-star to a hot star the nonlocal low entropy energy of the gravity field is transformed into higher entropy heat energy. If you are in a parachute, then you are no longer on a geodesic in the descent. Admittedly how this nonlocal energy of the gravity field is converted into local energy of the matter field is not intuitively obvious. In the case of an adiabatic process for a sequence of static LNIFs
g00 = 1 - 2GM/c^2r ----> g'00 = 1 - 2GM/c^2r'
for example. In Newtonian terms, the difference in LOCAL gravity potential energy is
GM/r - GM/r' = (c^2/2)GM(1/r - 1/r') now this is supposed to be the the path independent line integral of F.dx where F is a real force, and so it is, but it's not the gravity force at all, its the electric force of constraint that adiabatically changes to maintain the sequence of static LNIFs. Next question is what happens when the process is not adiabatic. Looking at the test particle motion'
Dp^u/ds = F^u
p^u is the 4-momentum of the test particle
F^u is the EM-weak-strong real force on the test particle
D/ds is the covariant proper time derivative along the world line of the test particle which in off-geodesic parts of the worldline of the process has non-zero Levi-Civita connection.
Dp^u/ds = dp^u/ds + {^uvw}p^vp^w/m
Therefore,
THE LOCALIZED EXCHANGE OF NONLOCAL GRAVITY ENERGY WITH THE KINETIC ENERGY OF THE TEST PARTICLE ONLY HAPPENS ON THE OFF-GEODESIC PIECES OF THE TEST PARTICLE'S WORLD LINE WHERE THE LEVI-CIVITA CONNECTION IS NON-ZERO.
THIS IS DICTATED BY EINSTEIN'S EQUIVALENCE PRINCIPLE.
indeed there is an analogy here with computation, that the entropy only increases in the erasure of information
Landauer's Principle, first argued in 1961[1] by Rolf Landauer of IBM, is a physical principle pertaining to the lower theoretical limit of energy consumption of a computation. It holds that "any logically irreversible manipulation of information, such as the erasure of a bit or the merging of two computation paths, must be accompanied by a corresponding entropy increase in non-information bearing degrees of freedom of the information processing apparatus or its environment". (Bennett 2003)[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landauer's_principle
JW: It has been obvious, even from the time of Newton, that inertia is correlated to the distant stuff in the observable cosmos.
JS: This is nonsense. It's not obvious. It's simply muddled sloppy thinking based on primitive magical astrology. Particles are the same every where. Not only that, but 96 % of the gravitating stuff of the universe is not in the form of real particles at all! Most of the stuff is virtual particles!
JW: Before the 1920s, that meant, in Mach's turn of phrase, "the fixed stars". Inertial frames of reference do not rotate with respect to the "fixed stars".
JS: We now know that to be nonsense. Rovelli explains this quite well in detail. But basically, the local gravity near fields, and more specifically their patterns of geodesics, are determined by matter Tuv sources inside their past light cones - and possibly future light cones from Wheeler-Feynman Hoyle-Narlikar effect as in Tamara Davis's modified conformal diagram
Since the universe is expanding and indeed now accelerating for past few billion years there is an obvious asymmetry between past and future influences in the here-now that Sciama's 1950's quaint model that Jim relies on did not even conceive of.
JW: The obvious inference is that the "fixed stars" somehow determine local inertial frames of reference.
JS: This is numbo-jumbo mystification Jim. Basically there is, in the conventional view a retarded Green's function G(x,x') that takes the Tuv(x') source distribution in the past light cone of the field point here-now and ROUGHLY SPEAKING the integral of G(x,x)Tuv(x')d^4x' gives the guv(x) metric field locally. Rotation is defined relative to that local guv(x) metric field from the collective influence of all the stuff in its past light cone out to the past particle horizon. This is prior to Wheeler-Feynman modifications from our future de Sitter event horizon.
JW: I am not going to rehash the arguments over this -- Mach's principle as Einstein called it. I will point out that exactly the opposite of what Jack claims has taken place in the last 15 or 20 years. "Precision" cosmology has shown the universe to be spatially flat at cosmic scale, and that means that "critical" cosmic matter density is present, and that in turn means that gravitational actions do indeed account for inertial effects.
JS: This a complete RED HERRING. That the universe is spatially flat does not contradict anything I have said. Jim is making a purely polemical bogus hand-waving argument here. Indeed, I am just giving here the standard text book view that gives as one possible solution the spatially flat k = 0 FRW metric on a large scale that with the positive cosmological constant / gives the acceleration for the past few billion years.
JW: Likely, this would be universally acknowledged were it not for the fact that inertial reaction forces are instantaneous -- and the only way to account for this fact without violating the principle of relativity is with a Wheeler-Feynman "action-at-a-distance" formulation of gravitation.
JS: In EM the Wheeler-Feynman radiation reaction is proportional to D^3X^u/ds^2 for the test particle. Now Jim claims he gets the analogous radiation reaction term for gravity to be D^2X^u/ds^2. I have yet to see how this allegation works in detail. Jim seems to claim that the ma term in Newton's second law of motion
F = ma for OFF-GEODESIC motion
where F is a non-gravity force, comes from the future light cone. Suppose it did somehow, that still does not determine what numbers to sick into m for the different elementary particles.
Furthermore, there are no gravity radiation waves of any significance - no one has detected them directly locally, and if and when they do they will be so weak that they cannot explain the NEAR GRAVITY field as in
g00 = 1 - 2GMEarth/c^2r
Indeed, there is no coherent narrative in what Jim is saying that I can see at this moment.
JW: This type of formulation, by the way, is well-known to apply to electrodynamics. And John Cramer has shown that it can be used to "interpret" quantum mechanics which has seemingly instantaneous "entanglement" interactions. So, we're not talking completely off the wall physics here.
JS: You have not connected John Cramer's mathematics with your mathematics - maybe you do in your book? Cramer is talking about quantum BIT PILOT waves which have very different properties than classical matter field waves. This distinction is clear in Bohm's formulation of the quantum potential Q. Entangled quantum waves have their domains in PHASE SPACE using the Wigner density and their range in Hilbert space - very different from local EM waves. Indeed, the superquantum potential of the classical electromagnetic and gravity fields are infinite dimensional in Hilbert space - one dimension for each point of the spacetime continuum. In fact for gravity we have to go into a higher level of numbering Wheeler's many-fingered super-space where each point is an entire spacelike 3-Geometry. So it's not at all clear if Cramer's picture based on primitive particle mechanics only can even deal with gravity. It's not clear it can deal with even the Dirac spinor fields. Wheeler and Feynman tried to get rid of the EM field using direct light cone limited particles only. They had to give up on that and modern quantum field theory gives independent existence to the spin 1 boson gauge fields. Indeed, supersymmetry and string theory demand it - though they are still not established empirically. That may change soon in the LHC.
JW: In the last analysis, notwithstanding that the roles of theory and experiment are no longer what they were even 100 years ago, experiment is the final arbiter of what's real and what isn't. While looking for a way to get around spacetime quickly, I've blundered onto some effects that are predicted by Mach's principle -- effects that are otherwise not expected. So, should those prove real, the Machian view should eventually prevail -- and maybe we'll be able to get around spacetime quickly.
JS: Your effects so far are marginal and probably systematic errors like the short-lived superluminal neutrino.
JW: That brings me to the weekly update. The lesson of the last year or two, and especially the last month or two, is that the behavior of the PZT stacks presently in use can be very irritatingly cranky. The production of thrust effects depends on getting things to work correctly that, in an ideal world, would take care of themselves automatically. You know about the marginal performance eeked out of the system of a few weeks ago. After that, I took the device that had been run into the ground with a single frequency driving signal and tried running it with a dual frequency signal. For mundane technical reasons, in this system that means a smaller effect, if any, from the earlier work. Smaller signals of the sort expected were obtained.
The signals in the attached PPT file (which also has some pictures of lab upgrades), however, are with the single frequency signals and a different device of the same design that has not yet been run into the ground. And most recently, the run into the ground device has been mounted with a new mount for testing of that arrangement. I won't bore you with the technical details. Suffice it to say that finding improved, more reliable materials has risen to the top of the priority list. Discussions like that you've endured the past week or so may be diverting. They won't get starships built. Only real hardware that can be made to work reliably has any chance at all of getting that done. So work in the lab goes on. . . .
May you all have a very enjoyable New Year's holiday,
Jim
On Dec 29, 2012, at 2:20 PM, Paul Murad <ufoguypaul@yahoo.com> wrote:
This is a very pessimistic perspective.
Man by itself is incapable of developing morality and ethics except with God. You mention
death, well if there is a hell, the believe that they exist without god or absence that we can
assume means love for that matter may indeed make hell a very empty disparate place.
The crutch that exists may not be fully a religious point but rather a historical view that is part
of mankind's culture. These things happened, are real and they occurred. Regarding your view about
different religious causing problems, I would have to agree but I do not see any contradiction
in believing in God and the possibility of reincarnation...
To mention Jung-Pauli is child-play... Scientists are only rarely right and on metaphysical subjects,
we do not have the physical evidence to judge truth or falsehood with a clearly defined scientific
investigation.
Paul
Paul M,
1) Rupert Sheldrake's morphogenetic field data is direct evidence for the Jung-Pauli information field.
2) The Central Intelligence Agency Stanford Research Institute Remote Viewing data is evidence for the Jung-Pauli information field.
3) Reincarnation data is evidence for the Jung-Pauli information field.
on all of the above see in particular Russell Targ's several new books as well as Hal Puthoff's on-line report.
4) There is a solid theoretical physics basis for it
a) David Bohm's Implicate Order = world hologram screen software on both our past and future cosmic horizons - the Alpha Point past particle horizon and the Omega Point future event horizon shown in my modification of Tamara Davis's PhD fig 1.1c
For details see http://www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~mdt26/pilot_waves.html (note also Lecture 8)
The work of MIT physicist Seth Lloyd shows that these two cosmological horizons are computers.
I think they are conscious computers i.e. Hawking's Mind of God - literally
See also the papers of Antony Valentini on signal nonlocality
e.g.
Subquantum Information and Computation
Antony Valentini
(Submitted on 11 Mar 2002 (v1), last revised 12 Apr 2002 (this version, v2))
It is argued that immense physical resources - for nonlocal communication, espionage, and exponentially-fast computation - are hidden from us by quantum noise, and that this noise is not fundamental but merely a property of an equilibrium state in which the universe happens to be at the present time. It is suggested that 'non-quantum' or nonequilibrium matter might exist today in the form of relic particles from the early universe. We describe how such matter could be detected and put to practical use. Nonequilibrium matter could be used to send instantaneous signals, to violate the uncertainty principle, to distinguish non-orthogonal quantum states without disturbing them, to eavesdrop on quantum key distribution, and to outpace quantum computation (solving NP-complete problems in polynomial time).
Comments: 10 pages, Latex, no figures. To appear in 'Proceedings of the Second Winter Institute on Foundations of Quantum Theory and Quantum Optics: Quantum Information Processing', ed. R. Ghosh (Indian Academy of Science, Bangalore, 2002). Second version: shortened at editor's request; extra material on outpacing quantum computation (solving NP-complete problems in polynomial time)
Subjects: Quantum Physics (quant-ph)
Journal reference: Pramana - J. Phys. 59 (2002) 269-277
DOI: 10.1007/s12043-002-0117-1
Report number: Imperial/TP/1-02/15
Cite as: arXiv:quant-ph/0203049
(or arXiv:quant-ph/0203049v2 for this version)
Also see the 46 minute raw video of me and Dan Smith discussing this. I look like a frumpy shlepper in it, but the content is good.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=A56hT_51v7I
OK now we are honing in on the fly in Jim's soup. Jim wrote:
"a fictitious force is one that produces the same acceleration irrespective of the mass of the object on which it acts. It has nothing to do with whether the force is real or not." Footnote 5
Jim's first sentence is correct as far as it goes. It does not go far enough to explain the concept in its fullness. Jim's second sentence is misleading.
First: What is the proper definition of a "real force"?
A real force acting locally in a small region of spacetime is what an accelerometer placed in that region measures.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerometer
also see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativistic_mechanics
Special Relativity SR works locally in GR (EEP).
Non-rotating accelerometers on timelike geodesics measure ZERO.
The pattern of timelike geodesics are the INERTIAL PROPERTIES of space.
e.g. Lense-Thirring effect dragging of LIFs by rotating source masses
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame-dragging
Mach's Principle (MP) would conceivably apply to this pattern of timelike & null geodesic.
The timelike geodesics provide the local GEOMETRODYNAMIC reference field upon which "inertia" according to Newton's 2nd law is measured.
Inertia is the ratio of applied external electromagnetic-weak-strong force to what accelerometers measure.
Real test particles obey Einstein's mass shell constraint
E^2 = (mc^2) + (pc)^2
(poles of the Feynman propagator in the complex energy plane in quantum field theory)
Virtual particles violate the above constraint.
Both real and virtual particles directly bend space time in different ways i.e. both contribute to the Tuv source tensor in
Guv + (8piG/c^4)Tuv = 0
Mach's principle and Einstein's GR have nothing whatsoever to do with the origin of the rest masses m of the elementary particles.
The pattern of rest masses m come from quantum field theory (including Higgs) of the electromagnetic-weak-strong interactions.
The rest masses m are UNDETERMINED PARAMETERS as far as MP & GR are concerned.
m is also called inertial mass = gravity mass (part of the EP).
Therefore, anyone who claims that the actual values of m are determined by GR & MP is most definitely confused and wrong in my opinion.
They confuse the inertial properties of space-time given by GR with the inertia of elementary particles m.
On Dec 26, 2012, at 6:40 PM, JACK SARFATTI <sarfatti@pacbell.net> wrote:
No point wasting more time on this quicksand rut.
I want to move on reading Jim's book.
I think I have made the point clearly with detailed math for two independent situations that I think u & Jim confound.
I argue with equations as much as possible and Z your verbal explanations generally make no sense to me.
What you still don't understand Z is that
Case 1: the observed test particle on geodesic when observed in a non-inertial frame will show apparent fictitious Coriolis, Euler, centrifugal forces and Newtonian gravity forces on that test particle whose accelerometer pointer stays at zero. In contrast the frame accelerometer pointer is off zero. Therefore, in that case, the apparent forces on the geodesic test particle are simply optical illusions.
Case 2: The observed test particle is now pushed off geodesic by a real constraint force. In that case the test particle will obey Newton's third law LOCALLY and will exert an equal and opposite CONTACT LOCAL INERTIAL REACTION FORCE on the ACCELERATING AGENT ( to use Jim's phrasing).
In some cases, e.g. the CYCLOTRON PROBLEM that electrical inertial reaction force will be outward centrifugal on the magnetic flux mr x w x w = (e/c)v x B where v = rw in the tangential direction of the circular orbit of period 1/w.
Now this term the real electrical local contact inertial reaction force mr x w x w in Case 2 MIMICs a term in the fictitious force Case 1 for the rotating non-inertial frame B (do not confuse with magnetic field pseudo-vector in BOLD FACE) where:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/5/1/5/515d0a6a1c2cca13eae083c7fad66a19.png
A is the inertial frame, and B is the rotating frame.
On Dec 26, 2012, at 4:44 PM, Paul Zielinski <iksnileiz@gmail.com> wrote:
On 12/26/2012 12:34 PM, JACK SARFATTI wrote
I .Z I think you & Jim are seriously confused on the concept of inertial forces so much so that your views are not even wrong in Pauli's sense - indeed mystical in the worst sense of the word. If I am right, then Jim's entire scheme for Mach propulsion seems fatally flawed. I am withholding final judgement till I real more in his new Star Ship book.
the future" - Ben Affleck in "Paycheck"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPKqQR64u_Q
Jennings realizes he must have built this device using Dekker's knowledge, and on realizing the horrors that will come, prepared the envelope using the forecasts from the machine to allow his future self to return to Allcom and destroy the unit. Furthermore, as Rethrick shortly discovers, Jennings rigged the device to malfunction, preventing Rethrick from anticipating Jennings' actions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paycheck_(film)
That's what retro-causal entanglement signal nonlocality permits.
That's what Russell Targ claims is operational already though not with good fidelity perhaps.
Amazon.co.uk: Russell Targ - Clairvoyance & Precognition ...
www.amazon.co.uk/...Precognition-Russell-Targ.../s?...
Online shopping for Clairvoyance & Precognition from a great selection of Books; Divination, New Age, Religion & Spirituality & more at everyday low prices.
CIA-Initiated RV Program at SRI
www.biomindsuperpowers.com/Pages/CIA-InitiatedRV.html
[2] Harold E. Puthoff and Russell Targ, "Perceptual Augmentation Techniques ... and Long-Distance Precognitive Remote Viewing of Geographical Locations," in ...
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Subquantum Information and Computation
Antony Valentini
(Submitted on 11 Mar 2002 (v1), last revised 12 Apr 2002 (this version, v2))
It is argued that immense physical resources - for nonlocal communication, espionage, and exponentially-fast computation - are hidden from us by quantum noise, and that this noise is not fundamental but merely a property of an equilibrium state in which the universe happens to be at the present time. It is suggested that 'non-quantum' or nonequilibrium matter might exist today in the form of relic particles from the early universe. We describe how such matter could be detected and put to practical use. Nonequilibrium matter could be used to send instantaneous signals, to violate the uncertainty principle, to distinguish non-orthogonal quantum states without disturbing them, to eavesdrop on quantum key distribution, and to outpace quantum computation (solving NP-complete problems in polynomial time).
Comments: 10 pages, Latex, no figures. To appear in 'Proceedings of the Second Winter Institute on Foundations of Quantum Theory and Quantum Optics: Quantum Information Processing', ed. R. Ghosh (Indian Academy of Science, Bangalore, 2002). Second version: shortened at editor's request; extra material on outpacing quantum computation (solving NP-complete problems in polynomial time)
Subjects: Quantum Physics (quant-ph)
Journal reference: Pramana - J. Phys. 59 (2002) 269-277
DOI: 10.1007/s12043-002-0117-1
Report number: Imperial/TP/1-02/15
Cite as: arXiv:quant-ph/0203049
(or arXiv:quant-ph/0203049v2 for this version)
JS: Nick you continually miss the key points here.
Of course presponse & RV are not orthodox physics experiments.
However, Helmut Schmidt's retro-PK experiments were and Henry Stapp published a paper in Phys Rev A about them for which they would have hung him if they could - You know who I mean.
The RetroPsychoKinesis Project
www.fourmilab.ch/rpkp/
Retropsychokinesis experiments are now on-line. ... Channeling evidence for a PKeffect to independent observers by H. Schmidt, ... Henry Stapp's controversial 1994 modification of quantum mechanics which accomodates RPK-phenomena. Stapp acted as an independent observer on some of Helmut Schmidt's more ...
Observation of a PK effect under highly controlled conditions
www.fourmilab.ch/rpkp/observ.html
by H SCHMIDT - Cited by 35 - Related articles
By HELMUT SCHMIDT ... The discovery of PK effects on prerecorded random events (Schmidt, 1976) did not .... of the subject in the test session has a retroactive effect on the moment the random events were generated (Schmidt, 1975, 1978). ..... Henry Stapp is a theoretical physicist at the Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory.
Physical reality is bigger than orthodox physics experiments done so far.
On Aharonov's claims. I say his retrocausal INFORMAL LANGUAGE (Bohm) interpretation is TRUE, but Godel-undecidable within the algorithmic RULES of the orthodox quantum physics GAME.
Get out of your box. Think more like a homicide detective - presponse, remote viewing are CLUES.
On Dec 21, 2012, at 12:32 PM, nick herbert <quanta@cruzio.com> wrote:
NH: You may choose to muddy the waters, Jack.
by citing other non-physics experiments.
But restricting the topic to Aharonov's claims.
Even smart people make mistakes.
Smart people learn from their mistakes.
Dumb people never do.
Jack: Have you learned from yours? ;-) Nick u also miss my logical point here as well as the significance of the presponse data. The presponse data + your friend Russell Targ's published evidence on CIA vetted precognitive remote viewing proves that real retrocausality is the fundamental fact of nature even though it is covered up encrypted as it were (passion at a distance) in the orthodox quantum limit. Now you can simply deny the validity of the presponse data and say that Radin, Bierman, Bem, Targ, May et-al are bad scientists and that their data is bogus. Indeed that's what James Randi et-al will say if pushed to the wall.
We then have a religious paradigm war like the Shias and the Wahabbis ;-)
Of course, the real proof in the pudding will be conscious AI nano-chips based on Antony Valentini's "signal nonlocality" but no one will try to make them if they believe what you believe - a bias against the very notion.
On Dec 21, 2012, at 11:50 AM, nick herbert <quanta@cruzio.com> wrote:
NH: On the interpretation of weak delayed-choice measurements as retro-causal: given three choices: necessary, sufficient or mistaken, Nick Herbert votes
(along with Kastner) for "mistaken".
On Dec 21, 2012, at 9:45 AM, Ruth Elinor Kastner wrote:
REK: If the fancy new experiments don't require it, then it shouldn't be claimed that they have demonstrated it. And remember that the fancy new experiments have no different ontological status than any other qm experiment. There is no new physics here and certainly nothing
meriting an invoking of 'back from the future' as pertaining only to those experiments, as the popular press keeps suggesting. This is all hype and nothing more.
RK
________________________________________
From: JACK SARFATTI [sarfatti@pacbell.net]
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 2:20 AM
To: Ruth Elinor Kastner
Subject: Retrocausality is a sufficient but not a necessary explanation in orthodox quantum theory
Jack: They do not require, it i.e. retrocausality is not necessary, it is sufficient. Invoking retrocausality does not contradict any orthodox quantum experiments. Retrocausality is a true Godel undecidable proposition within the too limited rules of the orthodox quantum theory game.
On Dec 20, 2012, at 11:01 PM, Ruth Elinor Kastner <rkastner@umd.edu> wrote:
REK: Jack, you'll need to say which argument you're talking about. If it's the claim in the abstract from the arxiv preprint I mentioned (http://arxiv.org/abs/1206.6224), yes, all the results
are nicely predicted by ordinary qm and do not require 2-state formalism as 'the only 'reasonable resolution' as claimed by Aharonov et al in that abstract. In fact the alleged 'contradictions' that they claim need 'resolution' are spurious; under a standard qm analysis, which I've already provided, there are no special problems or contradictions that need 'resolving' by recourse to a different formulation.
Jack: As I said. Yakir & Co only have an argument of sufficiency of the retrocausal interpretation in which psi* is a post-selected advanced destiny influence and psi is the pre-selected retarded history influence colliding as it were in the intermediate weak measurement. Since orthodox quantum theory is degenerate in this regard, i.e. admits a meta-Hilbert space of Godel undecidable Bohmian "informal languages" or interpretations, e.g.
1) Copenhagen epistemological
2) Bohm ontological
3) Parallel Worlds (Tegmark Level 3)
4) Cramer Transactional
5) London-Wigner consciousness reduction --> Penrose Orch OR
etc.
Only strong signal nonlocality in Antony Valentini's sense can settle the issue.
Libet --> Radin --> Bierman --> Bem
I claim is clear evidence for the breakdown of orthodox quantum theory in living matter.
Quantum theory is only limiting case of a more general post-quantum theory as special relativity was for general relativity.
REK: So they are taking something that is perfectly sensible under standard qm and making it seem strange and obscure to create an apparent need for their formulation. There are no special problems with these experimental phenomena under a standard qm analysis. It all boils down to steering of quantum systems (by way of weak measurements) into tilted error states more likely to give certain 'strong' outcomes. So of course the strong outcomes are more likely to have come from the weakly measured states which lean toward those outcomes. It's just the shoe factory analogy: If Alice is known to have a high rate of defective shoe production on Saturdays (because she partied too hard the night before), if Bob gets a Saturday shipment, he's going to find that more of those shoes are defective. That doesn't indicate that Bob's identification of a particular defective shoe forces that shoe to retroactively have been (probably) made on a Saturday the week before. It just means that it's more likely to have been made on a Saturday. This is all ordinary statistical inference,
no different conceptually from my inferring that in the past you interacted with your computer because I got an email from you. My getting that email did not retroactively influence you to have done something in the past. Neither do any of the fancy experiments referred to recently in the popular press require a 'back from the future' explanation.
Jack: They do not require, it i.e. retrocausality is not necessary, it is sufficient. Invoking retrocausality does not contradict any orthodox quantum experiments. Retrocausality is a true Godel undecidable proposition within the too limited rules of the orthodox quantum theory game.
REK: Rather than the 'back from the future' explanation being more 'elegant' or 'simpler' as 2-state vector proponents claim, it is tendentious and misleading since it's based on taking results perfectly consistent with standard qm and trying to argue that they require something beyond standard qm. They don't. Remember the shoe factory. Now if someone gets reliable statistically significant deviation from the Born Rule, that's a completely different matter: in that case, both standard qm and the 2-state formulation fail.
Jack: I think the history-destiny picture naturally generalizes to include signal nonlocality - that's what John Cramer claims in his back from the future experiment and in Chapter 16 of Frontiers of Propulsion Science.
________________________________________
From: jack [sarfatti@pacbell.net]
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 1:16 AM
To: Kafatos, Menas
Subject: Re: I missed this. You?
That's what I have been saying. However Ruth seems to think her argument refutes Yakir's
It doesn't Difference in logic between a sufficient explanation and a necessary one.
Sent from my iPad mini
On Dec 20, 2012, at 10:07 PM, "Kafatos, Menas" <kafatos@chapman.edu> wrote:
I agree with Ruth, they are not by themselves.
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 21, 2012, at 2:33 AM, "Ruth Elinor Kastner" <rkastner@umd.edu> wrote:
Ok Jack -- the only thing I question is holding up these experiments in the popular press as evidence of retrocausality -- they aren't.
RK
________________________________________
From: jack [sarfatti@pacbell.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 7:25 PM
To: Ruth Elinor Kastner
Subject: Re: I missed this. You?
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 20, 2012, at 3:11 PM, Ruth Elinor Kastner <rkastner@umd.edu> wrote:
The presponse data is a separate issue from what's going on in the experiments referred to by CL.
Jack: Agreed The retrocausal phenomenon is moot in orthodox qm
Yakir agrees with that
The presponse data is a violation of it
So orthodox qm is not interesting for retrocausality
What Yakir shows is that there is no contradiction
It's like lifting a degeneracy in the meta Hilbert space of parallel qm interpretations
REK: I don't rule out that humans might be able to get around QM statistics and that there may be other physics out there, but my point is just that
_these experiments do not contain that new physics_. These experiments are perfectly consistent with standard QM without explicit retrocausality.
Therefore, of course they are also consistent with TI as an interpretation of standard QM. Yes in TI there are advanced states but these are sub-empirical; i.e.
their existence cannot be revealed/confirmed by experiment- -- at least not by these experiments. On the other hand, Valentini's work predicts deviations from standard QM (i.e. Born Rule).
Jack: That's my point.
REK: Only if there is deviation from the Born Rule is there truly
new quantum physics in this sense. In terms of the Transactional Interpretation, deviation from the Born Rule would mean that there might be some way to directly influence _which_ transaction is actualized from a set of possible ones.
Jack: Cramer say that in ch 16
I prove it using entangled Glauber states
________________________________________
From: jack [sarfatti@pacbell.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 5:59 PM
To: Ruth Elinor Kastner
Subject: Re: I missed this. You?
Right I still have not had time to respond properly in depth
But your critique noted
Crucial test is presponse evidence u ignore
Also Russ Targ's CIA RV SRI report
John Cramer disagrees w you in ch 16 of exotic propulsion book
I mean your not addressing issue that qm is limit of more general theory with entanglement signaling.
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 20, 2012, at 2:48 PM, Ruth Elinor Kastner <rkastner@umd.edu> wrote:
I've seen a discussion elsewhere about these kinds of experiments. As soon as you detect a single particle (say Alice's), a one-particle Alice state is necessarily detected
and actualized on Alice's side, even if nobody 'looked' at it (i.e. even if there is still epistemic uncertainty about what state was actualized) and that
collapses the pair (both Alice's and Bob's particles) in that particular run into a particular state . Then the subsequent measurements you perform on Bob's particle
will reflect the statistics of the state that was created via the detection of Alice's particle.
In the experiments involving a superposition of the interferometer mirror in a 'which-slit' and 'both slits' configuration, detection of Alice's particle projects that combined system of Alice + Bob + IFM mirror into a particular state, and then detection of the mirror in a particular state further projects Bob's particle into a particular state corresponding to the mirror's detection, so of course Bob's particle is later detected with statistics reflecting those earlier detections.
No explicit retrocausality is necessarily present in these kinds of experiments.
The claims are usually overstated based on a conflation of any given individual run with the statistical analysis of sets of runs.
RK
________________________________________
From: jack [sarfatti@pacbell.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 1:37 PM
To: Levit, Creon (ARC-P)
Cc: Kim Burrafato; Ruth Elinor Kastner; Fred Wolf; Daniel Sheehan; Nick Herbert; Saul Paul Sirag; Menas Kafatos
Subject: Re: I missed this. You?
I know about this and I think kim already has it posted on Stardrive
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 20, 2012, at 10:26 AM, "Levit, Creon (ARC-P)" <creon.levit@nasa.gov> wrote:
http://phys.org/news/2012-04-quantum-physics-mimics-spooky-action.html#nRlv