On Sep 20, 2010, at 10:59 AM, nick herbert wrote:
On Sep 20, 2010, at 2:13 AM, Hrvoje Nikolic wrote:
Hi Nick, Yu, and Danko!
I agreed with the first objection by Nick in his first
e-mail, but I would like to make some comments on these
last comments by Nick.
One of the oddest facts about experiments of this kind is that the mere possibility of gaining "which-path" information
will prevent interference from occurring. You do not have to actually carry out the "which-path" observation.
But in order to ACHIEVE the possibility of gaining "which-path" information, you MUST do something PHYSICAL. Namely, you need to put or remove some piece of experimental equipment. It is THIS PHYSICAL
change that makes the physical system different.
There are two choices involved in making a quantum measurement--Sometimes called the Heisenberg choice and the Dirac choice. The Heisenberg choice is the PHYSICAL choice (made by man or nature) to deploy a macroscopic object in a particular way. It is called the Heisenberg choice because deploying an object in a particular way (to select out which path info) completely precludes deploying it in a complementary way (to select out which interference sub-class info). The Dirac choice is the irreversible quantum jump that occurs somewhere in the apparatus and brings the experiment to a close. This choice is considered by most physicists to be utterly random--an act of God, and since Dirac was the closest thing to diety on this planet, his name is attached to this choice.
I agree with Nick on this particular issue above.
Signal nonlocality violation of quantum theory means that information encoded by a sequence of Heisenberg choices on a sequence of pulsed ensembles of pair correlated systems from one end (the sender) will be displayed faithfully, without significant random noise at the other (receiver end) without the need of a correlation analysis to unlock the message. If you want to think of collapse, then the combined Heisenberg-Dirac choices of which eigenstate to output would not be uncontrollable as Bohr posited. In that case one could communicate with entanglement using only one pair at a time rather than a sequence of pulsed ensembles of N >> 1 pairs. For example, "Uri Geller" could go to Monte Carlo and play dice and win every time - a clear example of the idea.
Henry Stapp summarizes the gist of quantum mechanics thus: "things that could have occurred but didn't, influence the things that do occur."
But something HAS occured here. You have put or removed a piece of experimental equipment.
Something has indeed happened here. But something also has not happened. Nature has not made the Dirac choice. So the value that might have been displayed does not yet exist. Tho we may have deployed the which-path apparatus, there is no one pre-existing which-path value. In fact, at any time before a Dirac choice occurs (on the part of the entangled photon) we can change our mind and deploy another PHYSICAL APPARATUS that selects interfering subsets--a choice which will show that the interfering photons took both paths.
e.g. Marlan Scully's "quantum eraser"
It is almost as tho you don't have to act to change a quantum system--the MERE THREAT OF ACTING can do so.
It depends on what do you mean by "quantum system". If the pieces of experimental equipment count as parts of the quantum system,
then you DO NEED to change the quantum system.
Agreed, the Heisenberg choice (implied threat) must involve a physical act. It cannot just occur in the mind.
The second fact about this threat is that it makes no difference how it would be carried out--using machines or conscious awareness--
any way of recording that knowledge is as good as any other for carrying out this threat. Which of course need never be carried out.
It seems to me that there is some way of formulating this insight better--to say that in this particular situation, the mere possibility of
recording "which path information" REGARDLESS OF HOW THAT RECORDING IS PERFORMED can be construed to mean that quantum mechanics
itself gives consciousness no special role.
It is well known that machines can influence the wave function.
(That's why the pieces of experimental equipment do what they do,
as I repeated above.) In principle, the brain can influence the wave function too. (In fact, in
I have argued that this implies that nonlocal entanglement can,
in principle, be used for a sort of superluminal communication.)
However, I have no idea how conscious awareness itself,
except as a PHYSICAL CONFIGURATION OF THE BRAIN, could
influence the wave function.
Thanks for the reference. I have been studying alleged FTL quantum communication for 40 years and have devised dozen of schemes for using entanglement to accomplish this.***
Surprise. I think I'm back on your side.
I will keep playing with these concepts till they get clearer.
Do my comments help?
***All indisputably refuted, of course. If your proposal is more than some facile attribution of quantum non-locality to biological systems--IE, if your proposal is as definite as a Heisenberg choice,
I would love to have a try at refuting it.
Easy. So the claim is that e.g. LHC & other BIG PHYSICS experimental claims can be trusted and the one's below are all fraudulent and should be rejected as pseudo-physics whilst string theory is real physics for example? Let's be clear, isn't that the underlying text?
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