Debate on nature and reality of flying saucers 7/14/10

On Jul 14, 2010, at 3:35 PM, j f w wrote between quotes:
"Sorry, this isn't right.  The electromagnetic index of refraction has nothing whatsoever to do with the stiffness of spacetime.  I repeat, the EM index of refraction has nothing to do with the stiffness of spacetime. It only applies to the action of materials on the propagation of electromagnetic waves in FLAT spacetime."
I replied:
You don't know that for a fact. It needs to be tested. You may be correct, of course I realize that from the beginning. However, there have been many failures of nerve before in theoretical physics not taking the formalism seriously. The curvature coupling is not G, it's G/c^4 - so let's see what the actual experiments will show. Let's put it this way - if this G/c^4 does not work, then nothing will and there are no real flying saucers that do what Paul Hill says they do.  Nothing else can possibly work within known laws of physics. If you have anything better to propose please do. I will stick to this until actual experiments prove it wrong.
jfw "So putting a small amount of electromagnetic energy into a metamaterial with a large negative index of refraction will do nothing whatsoever to the spacetime in which it exists.  Because the total energy in the region of spacetime to be distorted, the metamaterial notwithstanding, is decades of orders of magnitude too small to do the requisite distortion.  Jupiter masses of exotic material are required to distort spacetime the way Jack seems to think small amounts of EM energy in metamaterials will do.'
For the record, I bet James is dead wrong on this. If he is right, there is no hope for man to get to the stars because the energy requirements are impossible to meet. That means all the UFO data is misinformation - you can't have both ways.
jfw "There is no cheap lunch in the advanced propulsion business."
If there is no 5 cent lunch then there is no no advanced propulsion possible - I mean no warp drive, no star gates, no REAL flying saucers, we are alone in the cosmos, doomed to drown in our own $H%T.
On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 13:19:45 -0700 JACK SARFATTI writes:
At Bay Club on iPhone so this is brief
Newton's gravity force is an inertial force. Saucers have zero g-force on them. They are local inertial frames on timelike geodesics whose shape they control with small amounts of near EM field negative energy density in a superconducting meta  material thin fuselage with large negative permittivity and  permeability from the almost zero speed of light inside the meta  material.
From: JACK SARFATTI [mailto:This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.]
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 12:30 PM
To: PM
Subject: Re: Gravitatomagnetic Analogs of Electric Transformers -- Puthoff & Woodward
No you don't get it. Unless G/c^4 is increased by at least 40 powers of ten - all of these effects are TOO TINY for propulsion for the reasons jfw gave! You are not comprehending the problem here. There are no credible reports of saucers spinning at 100,000 RPM as they fly.